Weber Amp Kits: should I do it?

[TelZilla]

OK, I have a few questions about these.
~a 6A 20 kit is a BFDR circuit, right?
~The weber site says that the 6A20 is "Extremely complex". https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_60a.htm#6A20 Can anybody comment on this? I've never built an amp before, so I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. However, I'd really like Trem and Verb.

~My other potential candidate is some kind of 5E3 circuit. https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_50a.htm#5E3. I see somethng called the 5E3 and another (further down) called the 5E3 Proluxe, which says this : "Classic 5E3 circuit with 6L6's in fixed bias, WZ34 recto, and 40 watt OT. 12A150-A 50w speaker" Does this mean that it's a 40 watt tweed deluxe? The regular is 18 watts, right?

 

[quackerz]

OK, I have a few questions about these.
~a 6A 20 kit is a BFDR circuit, right?
~The weber site says that the 6A20 is "Extremely complex". https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_60a.htm#6A20 Can anybody comment on this? I've never built an amp before, so I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. However, I'd really like Trem and Verb.

It's actually the trem and verb that makes it more complex. More parts, larger circuit mean many more places to screw up and it will be that much more difficult to troubleshoot when you do. Personally I wouldn't go there for a first build but you know your skill level better than I do.

~My other potential candidate is some kind of 5E3 circuit. https://taweber.powweb.com/store/kits_50a.htm#5E3. I see somethng called the 5E3 and another (further down) called the 5E3 Proluxe, which says this : "Classic 5E3 circuit with 6L6's in fixed bias, WZ34 recto, and 40 watt OT. 12A150-A 50w speaker" Does this mean that it's a 40 watt tweed deluxe? The regular is 18 watts, right?

More like a "40-watt somewhat like a Deluxe, but with 6L6's and fixed bias will not sound like a Deluxe" tweed style amp. More like a high-power 5E5A tweed Pro.

 

[Larry F]

I just ordered a 5E3x2. Looks pretty straight forward. I agree that the rev and trem might be too complicated for a first build.

 

[Wayne Alexander]

Weber "kits" are not for inexperienced builders. He does not supply any instructions, and some of his parts are ok but not great, a few thoughtful upgrades are in order. If you want a kit in the classic sense, where there are step by step instructions from a master amp designer - builder, and you're thinking of a blackface Deluxe Reverb type amp, don't even think of getting anything other than an Allen Accomplice - http://allenamps.com. First rate everything, no compromises, very clever and useful upgrades over the stock circuit, comprehensive instructions that will result in an A+ build the first time you build an amp.

 

[TelZilla]

Weber "kits" are not for inexperienced builders. He does not supply any instructions, and some of his parts are ok but not great, a few thoughtful upgrades are in order. If you want a kit in the classic sense, where there are step by step instructions from a master amp designer - builder, and you're thinking of a blackface Deluxe Reverb type amp, don't even think of getting anything other than an Allen Accomplice - http://allenamps.com. First rate everything, no compromises, very clever and useful upgrades over the stock circuit, comprehensive instructions that will result in an A+ build the first time you build an amp.

Well, the problems with Allen are twofold:
1. no Tremolo. If I'm gettting a BFRDR, I want the Trem
2. It's $1500 for the Accomplice 1 X 12 combo. The Weber 6A20 is $600. Seems like I could get a lot of support for $900.

So what parts do yiou think Weber skimps on? I would get my own tubes, and I've heard the jacks are kinda cheapo. What else?

 

[Wayne Alexander]

The Weber kits will result in a decent sounding amp, built with his stock parts. There are lots of upgrades I'd suggest if you want to use the most durable, best sounding parts. The Weber pots are ok, but Alphas don't cost much more and are more the industry standard - the mounting holes and threaded shaft size are standard on the Alphas, not on the Weber-sourced ones. Dump the Weber jacks and use Switchcraft. Dump the Weber switches and use Carling. The electrolytics are ok but probably not as durable as Sprague Atom, and I prefer to use better tone caps than the Webers - his are similar to Mallory 150's, I've found that, depending on your goals, spending $20-30 for high grade caps (of the right type for what you want to sound like) has a good price-value ratio. The generic Weber transformers sound ok, but using a higher grade OT like Mercury or Heyboer will give you a lusher sounding amp. The OT is particularly important, it's a lot of the voice of the amp. The Weber cabs and speakers (if you know what speakers sound like what, and choose the right ones) are first rate. The chassis are ok, but you'll likely need to do some drilling and nibbling to get everything lined up and fitting well. But a first build is not what those kits are designed for, and unless you've got some resources that will help you know exactly what to do with mounting parts, routing wires, etc (there are a LOT of things an experienced builder will do that are not obvious, and make a huge difference to safety, hum, etc). If you don't know to mount power resistors so the "body" is off the board for some airspace under them, for instance, it's dangerous. The Weber-supplied tubes will "work" but good ones will sound better. By the way, I'm not down on Weber at all - I've bought a couple of his kits which I've used as the basis of a couple of amps (with the upgrades mentioned above, which adds quite a bit to the cost), but I've built a lot of them and don't need advice or help doing it.


Back to Allen, though, the Accomplice 1x12 KIT is $899, you're looking at the FULLY BUILT price. For what you want, I'd suggest the Allen Encore KIT, which has amazing bias-modulation tremolo, a really good master volume, Allen's RAW control that dials in brownface-type gain when needed, a reverb system with a tone knob, can run 6v6 or 6L6 tubes, etc. It's $1149 as a 1x12 or 2x10 kit (I'd suggest the 2x10). It comes with the BEST parts, transformers, caps, resistors, pots, jacks, etc. there are, and very good tubes. You don't need to change anything. Most importantly, though, you get an instruction manual that, if you follow it, will give you a first rate professional quality amp with no compromises. If you were going to upgrade the Weber kit with the same quality of parts, transformers and tubes as the Allen, there would be very little savings in the Weber kit over the Allen.

 

[kludge]

I'm slowly building a Proluxe kit, but ditching the fixed bias in favor of cathode bias. I'll still have the ability to use 6L6 types due to the bigger transformer, and probably won't use 6V6 at all.

The jacks actually aren't that bad, but the switches and especially the indicator light are. My indicator light didn't survive some mild chassis flexing as I set it on its side - I have a nice vintage light in its place now. On the other hand, the cabinet is quite nice, the speaker is great, and the transformers have a good reputation. I'm sure it'll sound fine once I get it finished.

As others have said, I wouldn't recommend Weber if you're an absolute beginner... pay more money and get more hand-holding, not to mention a few better-quality parts. And I'd recommend doing a tweed-style amp or an 18 watt Marshall clone rather than a blackface-style amp for your first build... less complexity and work!

 

[TelZilla]

Which Tweed, then??- lots of Q's

Guys, thanks for all the advice. Very helpful.

Kludge, What is the output of the 5E3 Proluxe? What's the advantage of building the Proluxe and then using 6L6s? Does that give more clean headroom or something?

You've convinced me that I should do some kind of tweed instead of a Blackface- I'm more attracted to the tweed sound, actually, but Trem is my favorite effect. I guess I'll have to get my trem from a pedal or something.

Also, I hear what you're saying on the hand holding (I'm sure I'll need it), but I'm still attracted to Weber, partially because he offers so many different tweed kits. I'm still trying to sort out the naming conventions of all of Leo's tweed circuits. Is this right?

5E3- 15 Watts, Deluxe
5E4- ???? Watts, Super
5E5-18-25 Watts (what accounts for this range?), Pro
5C3- ????

I've played a vintage tweed deluxe, and I loved the sound, but I think I'd like a little more clean headroom. What I'd really like is a 5E3ish circuit that's ~18-20 watts, and I like to get a Weber speaker. Would a 5E3 with 6L6's meet that criteria?

Does this amp exist as a kit?, any suggestions on a good source? Mission Amps? Marsh?

 

[JohnnyCrash]

I had a bad experience with Weber in the past, but it seems most people have good experiences.

As far as parts, they are what they are for the price. Pots and jacks are primarilly the cheap stuff. Depending on your taste you might not be keen on 1/2 watt carbon comp resistors. I prefer 1 watt Carbon Film (or Metal Film in high gain amp builds). STILL, for the price you're doing good on parts.

Have you considered a Princeton Reverb build? The trem circuit should be a little easier to deal with and there's no bias pot nonsense... then again, the Trem on a Prince isn't as lush as a Deluxe's.

I'd figure out what you REALLY WANT before committing.

1. Do you want natural overdrive? If so, BF or Tweed style?
This will answer wattage and circuit questions.

2. Is trem what you really want?
Most trem equipped amps are naturally more complicated (but there's more than one way to get trem in a circuit).

You may also consider a Vibro Champ build. I don't think Weber does em, but Ceriatone does:
(link removed)

--

More headroom on a tweed Deluxe? You may be better off using a "cleaner" more efficient speaker on a 5E3 instead of modding it for 6L6's... but who am I to judge, I'm building a 6L6 BF Princeton Reverb into a Champ chassis right now.

Also, I'd say jump right in and don't worry about complexity... my first builds were heavily modified - and I'm an absolute buffoon/moron. Essentially with a 1st kit, you're following a "color by numbers" layout drawing anyways.

Just be sure you do a lot of reading about safety. Filter caps hold high voltage charges even when the amp in unplugged/off. And trust me, from experience, that shock doesn't feel too good.

 

[RomanS]

I just finished one of Weber's 6M45 kits - rated right in the middle of his complexity scale.
This was the first amp (kit) I ever built, but I did have some experience with soldering before (guitar electronics, DIY effect pedals, modding an Epi VJr.). In retrospect, I certainly wouldn't have wanted to build anything more complex (like the 6A20, which I also had considered) - did run into a few problems, and needed the help of the great, knowledgeable & friendly guys at the Weber kitbuilding forum to get my amp up & running.

About quality: Definitely upgrade the pots (to Alpha or CTS), the stock ones look & feel rather cheap, low quality; I also upgraded to Carling switches, and Cliff jacks - but with these components, the quality of the stock ones didn't seem as low as with the pots.
From what I've heard from quit a a few different people, the quality of the Weber trannies is quite good, too, at least on par with stock modern-day Marshall or Fender ones.
There were a few minor issues with tolerances on the kit - screw holes slightly too small for upgraded jacks, mounting holes for the choke in the wrong place, board a few mm too long to fit in next to the filter cap board; but nothing really unsolveable - I'd say, drilling out a few holes and using a file was definitely worth saving the couple of hundred dollars compared to kits from other manufacturers.

About the sound: the amp sounds great - I'd say it is in the top 10% of all the amps I ever tried (admittedly, I have no experience with "boutique" amps - but this Weber kit amp sounds better than most of the stock recent-production Marshalls, Fenders, Peaveys & Carvins I have tried).

Here's a pic of mine (with a cab I built myself):

 

[RomanS]

Depending on your taste you might not be keen on 1/2 watt carbon comp resistors. I prefer 1 watt Carbon Film (or Metal Film in high gain amp builds). STILL, for the price you're doing good on parts.

JohnnyC, my 6M45 kit came with metal film resistors (don't know about the wattage rating - but they are slightly larger than the 1/2 W ones I get at the local electronics store).

 

[Larry F]

What are the pros and cons of 1/2 watt vs 1 watt resistors? I was going to ask "what's the difference," but...

 

[RomanS]

None really - 1/2 W ones are fine for most places in an amp, except for a few spots - and for those, 2W ones are included in Weber kits; most "classic" amps use 1/2 W carbon comp, too.

The actual differnce: 1 W ones can handle 1 W, and 1/2 W one - you guessed it: 1/2 W.

About carbon comp vs. metal film: CC are said to be noisier; some amp "gurus" claim that they are more musical sounding; metal film have less noise, and last longer. CCs are usually brown-ish, metal film ones are blue on the outside.

Here's a pic of the main board of my Weber 6M45, you can see the blue metal film resistors, and the yellow Mallory-type caps (Mallories are siad to have a warmer sound, and are usually recommended for Marshall-ish amps- though classic Marshalls used pricey mustard caps, Orange Drops are said to be brighter, and are usually used in Fender-ish amps).

 

[JohnnyCrash]

What are the pros and cons of 1/2 watt vs 1 watt resistors? I was going to ask "what's the difference," but...

On the scale of noisiness:

Carbon Comp (noisiest)
Carbon Film
Metal Film (quietest)

Carbon Comp and Carbon Film can often look similar. Carbon Comp can also look like the vintage ones and have a darker brown skin. Metal Film are blue-ish/white.

Higher wattage means quieter as well. Resistors use heat dissipation to transfer voltages down. The beefier they are etc...

It all makes little difference except for in opinions/taste.

Some folks love 1/2" watt Carbon Comps for more vintage tones. Noise at the resistor level tends to affect the character of overdrive and warmth.

Thats why its not a big deal about the resistors - but when it comes to switches, jacks, and pots I'd prefer to stick with better quality since they are mechanical parts by nature.

RomanS, that is a beautiful JTM45 clone!!!

 

[RomanS]

RomanS, that is a beautiful JTM45 clone!!!

Thanks! Looking at your new speaker cab, and at my head cab (before I had covered it with lots of spackle and paint), we seem to have similar woodworking skills & techniques...

 

[JohnnyCrash]

Thanks! Looking at your new speaker cab, and at my head cab (before I had covered it with lots of spackle and paint), we seem to have similar woodworking skills & techniques...

HAHAHA

I wish...

A t-shirt grill cloth, $6 in new Pine, and assorted scraps of wood ONLY DREAMS of looking like you're cab!

You did a really fine job, especially compared to my "White-Trash 1x12"



image removed

 

[RomanS]

Well, mine looked like yours, before I slathered on about 10 coats of paint - it's also made from the cheapest kind of fir (or is it spruce? Never sure about the English names of trees...) boards from the hardwood store.
Here's a pic of the back:



- no dovetail joints; and when I cut the front plate, I forgot to calculate for the thickness of the side walls, so I had to use thinner plywood, otherwise the chassis wouldn't have fit... used some metal angles to reinforce the sides. The "tube protector" is a cut-down heating duct grill from the hardware store - I guess we are even, when it comes to "ghetto woodworking".

 

[kludge]

Guys, thanks for all the advice. Very helpful.

Kludge, What is the output of the 5E3 Proluxe? What's the advantage of building the Proluxe and then using 6L6s? Does that give more clean headroom or something?

You've convinced me that I should do some kind of tweed instead of a Blackface- I'm more attracted to the tweed sound, actually, but Trem is my favorite effect. I guess I'll have to get my trem from a pedal or something.

Also, I hear what you're saying on the hand holding (I'm sure I'll need it), but I'm still attracted to Weber, partially because he offers so many different tweed kits. I'm still trying to sort out the naming conventions of all of Leo's tweed circuits. Is this right?

5E3- 15 Watts, Deluxe
5E4- ???? Watts, Super
5E5-18-25 Watts (what accounts for this range?), Pro
5C3- ????

I've played a vintage tweed deluxe, and I loved the sound, but I think I'd like a little more clean headroom. What I'd really like is a 5E3ish circuit that's ~18-20 watts, and I like to get a Weber speaker. Would a 5E3 with 6L6's meet that criteria?

Does this amp exist as a kit?, any suggestions on a good source? Mission Amps? Marsh?

I try to not count watts. It's sort of a funky number anyway, when you're talking about guitar amps - what distortion level are you measuring at? And it only gets you into the ballpark as far as volume goes.

The advantages of using 6L6 rather than 6V6 in a tweed deluxe circuit, as I see it... first, a bit more power. Second, a LOT more variety in tone from tube-swapping. That said, the Weber Proluxe kit is more different than that. It uses fixed bias rather than cathode bias, which gets even more power (substantially more, like another ten watts or so). But I prefer the sound of cathode bias amps. The standard tweed deluxe output transformer is too small to get the benefit of 6L6 tubes (not to mention some impedance mismatch), but the cathode bias circuit is fine. So upgrade the output transformer and you can run 6L6 tubes in any tweed deluxe!

If anything, I'd suggest going for any tweed deluxe kit and starting from there, since there are SO many on the market, the circuit is simple to build, and if it's working correctly it will sound at least very good. From there, you can upgrade the OT for more power, swap tubes and tweak the circuit for more clean headroom, or just build another amp!

The ranges of Fender tweed amps varied by speaker layout, power tubes, and preamp design. Circuits also changed for the same amp over time... how many "Bassman" amps have there been?

 

[stantheman]

I found it much more cost effective to buy my 5E7 from an experienced builder
and am totally satisfied to the point where next year I'll be ordering a Tweed Pro from the same builder.
I'll vouch for Jamie Thomas - his work is impeccable and I got the whole package shipped to my door for well under 900 bucks.
If You have little experience the project could end up costing plenty - up to and including Your mortality.
Consider someone who does "Builds" on a regular basis.

 

[JohnnyCrash]

I found it much more cost effective to buy my 5E7 from an experienced builder
and am totally satisfied to the point where next year I'll be ordering a Tweed Pro from the same builder.
I'll vouch for Jamie Thomas - his work is impeccable and I got the whole package shipped to my door for well under 900 bucks.
If You have little experience the project could end up costing plenty - up to and including Your mortality.
Consider someone who does "Builds" on a regular basis.

I have no training. I jumped in head first.

1. You learn about amps. How they work, how to repair them yourself, how to mod to taste. No more repair shop trips (especially for minor stuff like rebiasing).

2. I'm still alive.

3. It is cheaper to do it yourself. You don't charge yourself for time/man hours.

I had no clue what I was doing or even the simplest idea of basic tech stuff... now I know a hella lot more than I did before I started building. I have 6 or 7 amps for what would have cost me a lot more.

--

My first two builds were not from kits. I even had to cut/drill plain chassis custom - having never built an amp before! I even build my own cabs from scratch too... I failed woodshop in the 7th grade and I have so few tools its laughable.

Those first two builds were tweed Champs... with a multiple tapped output transformer, solid state diode rectifier, custom cathode bias switching for exchanging 6V6, 6L6, or EL34 power tubes - all with no clue what "cathode" even meant.

I've got all kinds of amps now, but this first Champ head build has a 15watt OT and I can plug it into any cab I want (4, 8, or 16 ohms). It is the LOUDEST Champ you'll ever hear (through any speaker) - it is unique.

Take a look through my photo gallery... going DIY was not only cheaper, but I learned enough to build several amps, speaker cabs, fabricate custom Tele control plates, and it even got me building Partscasters. It gives you confidence and knowledge.

Buying prebuilt is cool as well for sure. I still buy some amps. Still, it can have its benefits to build em

Trust me - if a bonehead like me can do it - anybody can.