Any thoughts on Spitfire vs Lightning circuit?

[Guitarteach]

I'm looking at my next build and need something in the 15 to 25w range for modest R&R gigs. Going to likely be though a 2x12" with a Celestion Blue and G12h 20w in.

I have a modded champ, a plexi with SE power and an 18w derived amp. The 18w has the volume but breaks up quick.

I like simple, responsive gain and i like a bit of bite and brightness without fizz. I'm closing in on a Matchless Spitfire or Lightning. The main difference seems to be an extra gain stage in the Lightning.

Any experience with either or both, I like the idea of more gain but can hit it with a clean boost if I want, which is drawing me to the simpler Spitfire.

I don't want as early a break as the 18w.

This is also likely to get heavy use with both a tele and 345.

Any experiences?

 

[TMMC]

I have a Spitfire clone, which sounds identical to my old Spitfire, and I can tell you that the Lightning is the better route if you want gain; the Spitfire is great, but not very gainy.

I play a tele and a Nighthawk through the Spitfire clone and it's a really great sound. 18w.

 

[Twang5000]

I went through the same thought process a few years ago...and having built several now I'll give you my (possibly duplicative and/or useless) input:

Spitfire and Lightning are essentially very very similar. Except in all the ways they are completely different amps.

And hopefully you see the humor in that because when looking at the schematics it can lead you to thinking they are the same amp with the Lightning just having an additional gain stage.

The major difference isn't necessarily obvious without putting your hands on the actual amps- it's the tone stack, PLUS the addition of the cathode follower stage (like a Bassman) in the Lightning. This makes the Lightning a much "bigger animal" than the Spitfire, and for some (myself included) the tonestack interactivity is a big minus, not a plus. I say this as someone who likes simplicity and as few knobs as possible between me and a good amp tone. The interactivity between the volume and tone controls on the Lightning make for a lot of tweaking potential- and can be a real pain if you are swapping guitars often.

But, if you want an amp that can sound MUCH MUCH bigger than what you'd think a 2 x el84 "should" sound like, and you want more amp distortion, then the Lightning is for you.

The Spitfire with it's simple tone control is my fave. It's a bit more Voxy too- or as I always describe it a bit like a British Princeton Reverb. And you save a couple bucks on parts. Hit it with a boost if you want to get big like a Lightning.

I always thought of it like the Lightning leans towards a Trainwreck while the Spitfire leans towards more traditional Vox/Fender.

Couple thoughts on the circuit: Matchless borrows from the Trainwreck school of thought, so while you can say a Spitfire/Lightning is like an AC15 they are much more modern and lose all the "tweed-like" slop and loose low-end of a Vox by stiffening up the amp with LOTS of extra power filtering, including a choke. They also run HOT- which is part of the magic- and both varieties can be known to eat el84's as snacks.

One of the inconsistencies you'll find among all the schematics available is the point where the B+ is taken from after the choke, feeding the screens through 2 100R resistors. Some schematics show a 22k resistor before the 2x100 ohm, some show a 2K2 before the 2x100 ohm, some show nothing but the 100 ohm pair. With no resistor you're really pushing it RE max screen voltage.

I think the general consensus is that Matchless made changes over the years- but what really matters is this is an area worth paying attention to. No resistor? Some guys say that's the magic Matchless sound. I say I like to play amps without keeping a fire extinguisher nearby. I also like tubes to last a while, and those poor little el84's already have issues with heat due to their size...so why abuse them?

So? Buy a few resistors (flame proof wirewound 2-3W rating if you want style points) and try them out. Myself? I always go with 22k. And the reason I am writing all this is because it's top of mind. I just had an older Ceriatone Spitfire kit on my bench and it was built with no resistor in that spot...heat really caused some problems in there. I think their kits call for a 2K2 now.

The schematics with the "missing" screen resistor are sometimes also seen with a missing filter cap stage. Follow the Ceriatone on this, the ones posted now are correct.

You can also play with the bias- again they run hot- so the stock cathode bias resistor can be changed- maybe from the stock 120 try 150 or 180 and see which you like. Bonus if you're actually measuring it. The cathode capacitor in parallel to that bias resistor is usually listed as a 22 or 25uf, but there is a hand drawn schematic generally thought of as coming from Matchless that shows this cap as a 250uf. Try it. Better bass, I think.

There is a metric ton written about these amps online in all the different forums...so you can spend hours reading about them...but those are the watch areas I've found. Others might have differing opinions, but it's worked for me over several copies I've built.

Also- if you're starting from scratch- look on Craigslist or eBay for a Hammond AO-43 amplifier chassis pull from a Hammond L100 series organ. (Or find an L100 cheap or free on Craigs, they are still out there, you'll get the amp plus the reverb tank and a ribbed alnico 12" and cloth covered wire!)

The whole Hammond amp thing might be ridiculously priced now but if you can find the complete amp...you get great power and output trannies, a choke, a chassis that is perfect for a Lightning (or a Spitfire and you can add a one tube reverb circuit to use the leftover open tube socket), plus maybe a set of Hammond tubes, and you can even strip and reuse the turret board...add up the "new parts cost" of all those things and buying the AO-43 might still be a bargain.

Have fun!

 

[Guitarteach]

Thanks. It will come down to whether I want to wind the gain up on the amp and ride the guitar volume control or boost a simpler amp.

Versatility might beat simplicity if I could get good mid gain tones from a Lightning then. PT and OT would be same so I could build both boards or change it.

 

[Guitarteach]

I went through the same thought process a few years ago...and having built several now I'll give you my (possibly duplicative and/or useless) input:

Spitfire and Lightning are essentially very very similar. Except in all the ways they are completely different amps.

And hopefully you see the humor in that because when looking at the schematics it can lead you to thinking they are the same amp with the Lightning just having an additional gain stage.

The major difference isn't necessarily obvious without putting your hands on the actual amps- it's the tone stack, PLUS the addition of the cathode follower stage (like a Bassman) in the Lightning. This makes the Lightning a much "bigger animal" than the Spitfire, and for some (myself included) the tonestack interactivity is a big minus, not a plus. I say this as someone who likes simplicity and as few knobs as possible between me and a good amp tone. The interactivity between the volume and tone controls on the Lightning make for a lot of tweaking potential- and can be a real pain if you are swapping guitars often.

But, if you want an amp that can sound MUCH MUCH bigger than what you'd think a 2 x el84 "should" sound like, and you want more amp distortion, then the Lightning is for you.

The Spitfire with it's simple tone control is my fave. It's a bit more Voxy too- or as I always describe it a bit like a British Princeton Reverb. And you save a couple bucks on parts. Hit it with a boost if you want to get big like a Lightning.

I always thought of it like the Lightning leans towards a Trainwreck while the Spitfire leans towards more traditional Vox/Fender.

Couple thoughts on the circuit: Matchless borrows from the Trainwreck school of thought, so while you can say a Spitfire/Lightning is like an AC15 they are much more modern and lose all the "tweed-like" slop and loose low-end of a Vox by stiffening up the amp with LOTS of extra power filtering, including a choke. They also run HOT- which is part of the magic- and both varieties can be known to eat el84's as snacks.

One of the inconsistencies you'll find among all the schematics available is the point where the B+ is taken from after the choke, feeding the screens through 2 100R resistors. Some schematics show a 22k resistor before the 2x100 ohm, some show a 2K2 before the 2x100 ohm, some show nothing but the 100 ohm pair. With no resistor you're really pushing it RE max screen voltage.

I think the general consensus is that Matchless made changes over the years- but what really matters is this is an area worth paying attention to. No resistor? Some guys say that's the magic Matchless sound. I say I like to play amps without keeping a fire extinguisher nearby. I also like tubes to last a while, and those poor little el84's already have issues with heat due to their size...so why abuse them?

So? Buy a few resistors (flame proof wirewound 2-3W rating if you want style points) and try them out. Myself? I always go with 22k. And the reason I am writing all this is because it's top of mind. I just had an older Ceriatone Spitfire kit on my bench and it was built with no resistor in that spot...heat really caused some problems in there. I think their kits call for a 2K2 now.

The schematics with the "missing" screen resistor are sometimes also seen with a missing filter cap stage. Follow the Ceriatone on this, the ones posted now are correct.

You can also play with the bias- again they run hot- so the stock cathode bias resistor can be changed- maybe from the stock 120 try 150 or 180 and see which you like. Bonus if you're actually measuring it. The cathode capacitor in parallel to that bias resistor is usually listed as a 22 or 25uf, but there is a hand drawn schematic generally thought of as coming from Matchless that shows this cap as a 250uf. Try it. Better bass, I think.

There is a metric ton written about these amps online in all the different forums...so you can spend hours reading about them...but those are the watch areas I've found. Others might have differing opinions, but it's worked for me over several copies I've built.

Also- if you're starting from scratch- look on Craigslist or eBay for a Hammond AO-43 amplifier chassis pull from a Hammond L100 series organ. (Or find an L100 cheap or free on Craigs, they are still out there, you'll get the amp plus the reverb tank and a ribbed alnico 12" and cloth covered wire!)

The whole Hammond amp thing might be ridiculously priced now but if you can find the complete amp...you get great power and output trannies, a choke, a chassis that is perfect for a Lightning (or a Spitfire and you can add a one tube reverb circuit to use the leftover open tube socket), plus maybe a set of Hammond tubes, and you can even strip and reuse the turret board...add up the "new parts cost" of all those things and buying the AO-43 might still be a bargain.

Have fun!

Thanks so much for all the detail. I like to learn more through tweaking. Lots to got at it seems.

I did put a hotter/colder switch on my first amp. Don't know if I'm saving tubes yet.

Thanks for the Hammond info. too. Looking at chassis options were my next thing. I've been looking at the Ceriatone diagrams.

I need a 'bigger' amp with some reserve headroom over my 18w but not quite to JTM/JCM levels with this one.

 

[coldengray]

I'm about to start a Spitfire build myself...tweaking the coupling cap values a bit, adding a Cut control, changing the Master to a Ken Fischer style and putting in a 3-way bright cap switch. Also reducing the plate resistor from 220k to 100k. Fusionbear helped me put together this recipe. I'm drilling/punching my own chassis, which I have never done before, so should be a good time!

Here is the clip that sold me on the Spitfire:



Most of the changes I mentioned are in the clip amp, except for the Cut and bright cap switch. The sound in that video blew me away and I had to build one.

 

[Guitarteach]

Thanks again. Looks like I'll need to double up on trannys & chassis in case I have to make both.

I'm spilt between two workshop spaces for a while but looking at the price of some chassis, making my own would be an interesting challenge if I could manage to do it.

 

[Amazed]

Also reducing the plate resistor from 220k to 100k.

Which plate? V1? Did you change the cathode bypass then or are you still at 1.5k?

 

[coldengray]

Yes V1. I haven't built it yet but was planning on starting with 1.5k and experimenting.

 

[FenderLover]

Another point to mention - depending on the sound you are chasing - Matchless uses a 4K OT while VOX and 18W are typically higher reflected loads. The response will be different. A lower load is typically a little cleaner and slightly lower power, higher load a little edgier and slightly higher power. A good compromise is one with either 4K or 8K primary and multiple taps, then just plug into the appropriate jack for the most flexibility.

 

[coldengray]

Transformer Design & Supply (TDS) is the Matchless transformer supplier and they will sell you a set, standup or laydown. The OT is 4K. I just received my standup set from them, they ship quickly. I believe the entire OT + PT + choke set is $269 for laydown, standup is a $20 up-charge.

TDS Facebook Page

If you want 4k and 8k taps, the Trinity 18 watt iron is a good choice.

 

[Guitarteach]

Transformer Design & Supply (TDS) is the Matchless transformer supplier and they will sell you a set, standup or laydown. The OT is 4K. I just received my standup set from them, they ship quickly. I believe the entire OT + PT + choke set is $269 for laydown, standup is a $20 up-charge.

TDS Facebook Page

If you want 4k and 8k taps, the Trinity 18 watt iron is a good choice.

Thanks. Useful info.

 

[ricknbaker]

And I came here thinking the Spitfire and the Lighting were iconic British aircraft.

 

[coldengray]

The goal for my build is to be Voxy, and the Spitfire is a good starting point for that. The Lightning has the EF86 which I love with single coils but after hearing that clip I posted earlier in this thread I was sold on the Spitfire. You really can't go wrong with either build. I chose a 12.5" x 6.5" chassis box from Watts as I wanted to keep things compact, hence my standup iron. I'm basically going to lay out the top of the chassis like a Morgan AC20. I have a really cool looking vintage fuse holder I bought on eBay, I'm hoping there is enough room to put it on the faceplate.

Not sure when I will be able to start, but my first task is to plot everything out on quadrille paper and determine the best placement for everything.

 

[mungus]

Why choose when you can build both?

Because the circuits are so similar, adding a few switching options should allow you to convert from one to the other.

 

[rghill]

Why choose when you can build both?

Because the circuits are so similar, adding a few switching options should allow you to convert from one to the other.

Build an 18 watt, with one channel the lightning and the other channel spitfire. Controls should line up, just add MV.

I read somewhere the magic with the Matchless clones is using the Vox style transformers. Seems like the 18 watt transformers would work just as well.

 

[mungus]

I guess the output transformer is always going to be an important part of the sound. AFAIK, Matchless used some heavy, "over-built" iron which lean a little more towards a hi-fi kind of sound. So you get crisp, well-defined clean tones and bass end which stay fairly well-defined as the volume goes up.

 

[coldengray]

Because the circuits are so similar, adding a few switching options should allow you to convert from one to the other.

Then you would have a Morgan AC20!