Yet another replacement tuner question

[ghosttele]

I'm looking for replacement tuners for my '72 Thinline reissue, but I'm shying away from the suggested replacements that are usually mentioned in threads here. A significant number of people mention "improved tone". I've been trying to get the tone I have for a few decades now (which I've only achieved within the past several months), so I want to avoid any change to my tone. What's the closest I can get to the stock tuners in terms of functionality, weight, etc, but has better ration/mechanisms, etc?

Thank you for your time!

 

[colchar]

Other than tuning stability I highly doubt that tuners will have any effect on tone whatsoever.

 

[ghosttele]

Other than tuning stability I highly doubt that tuners will have any effect on tone whatsoever.

That's what I thought, but enough people have made comments to the contrary. The weight will probably impact sustain, but I'm not sure about the rest.

 

[Alamo]

Why do you want to replace the original tuners? anything wrong with 'em?

 

[ghosttele]

Why do you want to replace the original tuners? anything wrong with 'em?

They feel like they're wearing out, and they've never been as precise as I'd like them to be.

 

[3-Chord-Genius]

Tuners will have no effect on tone at all. None. I have no scientific proof, I have done no comparisons, and I am no genius.

But it doesn't require a genius to know this.

 

[boris bubbanov]

If a cheap tuning machine is used, or it isn't really fitted solidly, you can get some trashy sounds in the background (loose bits) or it just doesn't sound so good. If you choose a set that's 9.5 ounces instead of a set that's 5.5 ounces, I think you might hear a difference but more to the point it could throw the guitar's balance off. Plus, some folks have errant ways of using certain kinds of machines and they rob their guitar of the potential it has because the strings were not even on there right. On top of that, your stock tuning machine can only handle a string up to .049-.050 inches. My E string is larger than that, so I can't really use the ones you have as I would like in the first place - you're asking, would my guitar sound the same with 10-46s as with 11-52s. I'll let you decide what the answer to that one is.

But Ghosttele, I think you've put in a nutshell what's wrong with the ones you have now. I switched by '69 Thinline MIM over to the old rectangular style splits that you'd find on an AV52 or AV62. Use a 10.0 mm conversion bushing. The small exposed hole area - you have to take the time to even see it IMO.

 

[ebb soul]

Gotoh vintage or vintage staggered.

 

[Nick Fanis]

for my '72 Thinline

Your guitar has "F" Tuners.

So if you want DIRECT replacement tuners you don't have many options

These:

http://guitar-parts.biz/hp528981/Original-F-Series-70-s.htm

are the actual tuners on your guitar (yours simply say "S" on them instead of "S")

Read this thread on the ONLY other drop in replacement you can buy.

http://www.tdpri.com/threads/kluson-replacement-tuners-for-f-logo-tuners.482233/

Of course there is NO sound difference when you change tuners.

 

[boris bubbanov]

Of course there is NO sound difference when you change tuners.

Ever played a guitar where the machines had been loosely installed and some of the fasteners were not tight? If you have, you'll know in an instant when you get that junky sound.

Now, imagine the fasteners are just a little loose. Or, imagine the bits inside are what is loose. Or, think of the machines with the works inside loosely pressed into a shell, and the shell is what is fastened to the headstock.

If you wanna say something like, 'Don't ever buy a tuning machine simply because it is touted to improve your tone", I agree 100%. Weight (balance), ease of use, aesthetics visually, durability, feel - all of these things matter more.

Here's what I hear when you put it in terms of "No sound difference". Absolute terms. This is the kind of thinking we deal with when youngsters or newcomers to working on cars decide to buy a cheap water pump because they're all the same or buy that off brand hub assembly. These are the same people who think a $ 15 Walmart pair of inline skates is the same thing as the $ 300 pair. With all due respect, why not just say it doesn't matter to you?

 

[colchar]

Ever played a guitar where the machines had been loosely installed and some of the fasteners were not tight? If you have, you'll know in an instant when you get that junky sound.

If the tuners fit, are installed properly, and are not loose there will be no difference.

 

[colchar]

If you choose a set that's 9.5 ounces instead of a set that's 5.5 ounces, I think you might hear a difference

No, you wouldn't hear a difference.

Plus, some folks have errant ways of using certain kinds of machines and they rob their guitar of the potential it has because the strings were not even on there right.

Define being "on there right". Have you ever seen how Danny Gatton used to string his Tele? Take a look at the video below at the 2:00 mark. Most people would say his advice is wrong but his method sure as hell didn't have any adverse affect on his playing or sound did it? And I have seen an interview with B.B. King (if I find it again, I will post it) in which he said that he used to do the same thing because, when he was younger, he couldn't afford strings so couldn't afford to waste them and had to use as much of them as possible (I couldn't tell from what he said how he actually did that, but who am I to argue with B.B.?). That didn't affect his playing or sound did it?

The problem is that home players, amateurs, bar players, etc. tend to fetishize guitars and obsess over the most meaningless details. I've seen and read plenty of interviews with great players which make it clear that they don't know squat about gear or the issues that people on guitar forums obsess over. Maybe we should all take to heart the underlying lesson from Gatton, B.B., and the rest of them and just play the damn things rather than obsessing over meaningless details.

Anyway, here is that Gatton video:

 

[Nick Fanis]

Ever played a guitar where the machines had been loosely installed and some of the fasteners were not tight? If you have, you'll know in an instant when you get that junky sound.

I avoid junky tuners,I also avoid wrongly installed tuners (although how this can happed baffles me....since it is not exactly rocket science to install tuners)

 

[DonM]

That's what I thought, but enough people have made comments to the contrary. The weight will probably impact sustain, but I'm not sure about the rest.

Probably the same people that like the directional cables.

 

[The Ballzz]

It is my sincerely considered opinion that the only affect tuners have on tone is helping us to be "impeccably" in tune, which affects tone dramatically! I'm not espousing any particular tuning method, but to accurately control tuning to your chosen temperament is crucial to one's chosen tone! Granted, the tuners, as well as all other hardware, need to be properly installed to do their job correctly and must be of sufficient quality to not rattle, buzz or make the neck so heavy as to be uncomfortable, but other than that.......STHU & "TWANG THAT THANG!" Anything that makes it easier to just play your your music, as opposed to monkey forking with the gear, is a bonus!
Just Sayin'
Gene

 

[boris bubbanov]

If the tuners fit, are installed properly, and are not loose there will be no difference.

You're re-stating the premise. I find that some tuning machines have inner works that will not be tamed. The insides are junk, from the manufacturer. You can overtighten the fastener until the maple is crushed but they still generate trashy sounds.

I love Danny's work, but nobody feels like 100% of the sounds he produced were "user friendly". That's the whole crux of why Danny's career didn't take off like everyone in the business expected it to. The same in your face "inaccessible" and experimental sounds he made that made aficionados beam with delight, was "too much" for John Q Public, the kinds of people who bought Air Supply and Carpenters records. Frankly, as great as he was, he's maybe the very last person I would employ to try to establish whether certain things worked a certain way when an electric was played in a normal way.

A "normal" Tele neck weighs something in the neighborhood of 500 grams and the devil is in how far you depart from this and in what direction. I'm sure you would accept that an 800 gram neck would not sound like 500 gram one, and I'm sure you would accept that a 300 gram neck would not sound like a 500 gram one. Now, all you have to do is decide how much of a difference in weight is enough to yield a different neck. I mean, next thing, with kindest regards, you're going to tell us is it doesn't matter how big those little legs on a tuning fork are (inasmuchas they'll still sound enough the same).

Look. Some people should just go about their business and use what has worked for them. If you wanted to find a way to just say that, I'd agree 100%.

 

[boris bubbanov]

Probably the same people that like the directional cables.

I just think it is hypocritical for people to make a fuss over the "sound" of a 3 pound 8 ounce T body versus the "sound" of a 4 pound 2 ounce body, and then they turn right around and profess indifference to the addition of 4 ounces of dead weight, way out on the far end of the neck, at the headstock.

Maybe I've assembled too many model airplanes and kayak paddles, but to me, what's going on at the far margin of whatever you're fooling with has disproportionate impact on the performance of the project. Doesn't anyone's intuition tell them this, even if they haven't done the math?


+

It does seem to me that a lot of people prefer a black and white world. Either everything has a measurable impact on guitar performance or nothing does. But the truth is, there are things (like solid body electric guitar body finish) that were 99.9% hype. And there are things like trying to choose the wood type for an electric guitar project where it is fraught with tedious trial and error - maddening searching in near darkness for the right result. But, when you start making things out of metal, then predictable results can and do emerge. When people look back on this subject in 7 years, they're going to laugh that nobody would acknowledge that 4 ounces of metal on a headstock could impact a guitar's performance.

I don't own and have no plans to use directional cables. But I've suffered sudden deflation of a directional automobile tire run the wrong way, that was attributed to this misuse. So, I am skeptical about people who close their eyes to every different way of thinking.

 

[Deeve]

Directional tuners . . .

 

[boris bubbanov]

Directional tuners . . .

Captured.

Ever try to put a set of tuners intended for a Lefty headstock on a Righty guitar?

Well, there you have it. We DO in fact have directional tuning machines.

Thanks for the assist! :^)

 

[Redd Volkaert]

Before you blow your money, maybe try switching the ones you have around first.

Put your low E tuner where the little E is now, switch A string with B string tuner and the D with the G

I would think the bass tuners get a lot less revolutions/wear over the years than the little string tuners get.

So if you think they're worn out, that might be enough to make a difference and worth a try,
while saving money and having pressure from all us Nerds.
Let us know.
Redd