Country vs. Western

[cnlbb]

If y'all don't mind I'd like to pull upon the collective thread of knowledge here to get a bit closer to solving something that's been bothering me.

So there's country like Hank Williams & Haggard. Then there's western like Bob Wills & Marty Robbins. How do we distinguish these genres, can they be distinguished, and who falls into each category?

There's some clear influential differences (cowboy folk songs vs. appalachian old time etc...) but even these start to break down upon too much inspection.

Let's get started. I have some ideas, but want to see where y'all take it. Thanks!

edit: To keep things simple let's try to keep the conversation to ~1975 and prior.

 

[blowtorch]

I prefer honkytonk

 

[cnlbb]

I prefer honkytonk

Me too buddy, but don't mean we gotta listen to/think about it exclusively. Additionally honky tonk is fairly cross genre (or perhaps not... thoughts!?)

 

[Beachbum]

I think as often as not it has a lot to do with how the artists define themselves based on the locality of their origin and the music scene going on in that place than the music itself. John Denver called himself a Western rather than Country artist because his music was greatly inspired by the High Sierras that he called home. Never the less his chords and melodies were to a large extent "Country" inspired. Texans often tend to identify themselves as "Americana", Texas Blues, and Western Swing to differentiate themselves from the Nashville "Country" players even though all of those styles are constantly mixed and blurred by almost everyone.

 

[slauson slim]

I recall reading that the term Country and Western was coined by Billboard to easily describe and chart records that were somewhat related with similar roots - western = cowboy based artists like Gene Autry and country = music made by southern and south eastern US rural people whose ancestry was English, Scottish or Irish. A term like Rhythm and Blues or Race music to describe records outside mainstream pop.

 

[screamin eagle]

Western Swing was really a style of dance music, one where Bob Wills really is the King. However, the formula, although maybe looser, was not dissimilar to that of the swing bands of New York, Kansas City or Chicago. It just had a looser feel and less horns and its sound was influenced by its regional environment. The same could be said of the Chicago, NY and KC bands.

I see Country music divided between Nashville and Honky Tonk. Honky Tonk was sort the black sheep child of Nashville and left home for it's own musings and self-actualization. Where instrument proficiency, recording fidelity and musical craft were the staples of Nashville, Honky Tonk celebrated artistic freedom and expression.

 

[4 Cat Slim]

Good analysis, screaming eagle!

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that people in remote areas needed bands to play/entertain at
dance halls. In Texas, there were (and still are) a lot of towns that were basically a feed store, a grange hall, a church or two and maybe a Dairy Queen. There was always a demand for a band to play music for dancing on weekends.

When motion pictures popularized the singing cowboy image, many of these bands adopted the look.
The idea of a star/vocalist/front man came later, I'd say, with the popularity of commercial country music in the late 1940s and 1950s. Honkytonk fits in here somewhere, too, but it's a blurry line between the styles. I agree with you that it was Nashville's step child.

I've seen some bands who pack dance halls draw poorly in concert (or listening) venues and vice-versa,
good vocalists do poorly in front of crowds who prefer music to dance to... so go figure.

 

[cnlbb]

Interesting analysis and certainly true. However, it seems that Western is broader than Western Swing. I'm fascinated by the idea music that grew out of songs like 'Old Chisholm Trail' ((link removed)) vs. songs like Sitting on Top of the World. Curiously Western Swing (of which meany of the early country covers of sitting were done by) might better fit the mold of Country vs. Western. I would almost say that Western (as I think of it) might better be described as 'cowboy.

 

[blowtorch]

Cowperson

Meaning of course, songs about Wisconsin dairy farming

So, polka music! Which spawned TexMex, Cajun, and certain types of metal.

 

[Beachbum]

^^ Spot on. I grew up in Minnesota when Polka was king. It always amazed me how much a 50's Minneapolis Polka fest sounded so much like a Mexicali Wedding.

 

[Harry Styron]

So there's country like Hank Williams & Haggard. Then there's western like Bob Wills & Marty Robbins. How do we distinguish these genres, can they be distinguished, and who falls into each category?

You're confusing genres with artists. For example, Merle Haggard recorded country songs and also recorded western swing songs. Bob Wills recorded songs from many genres, including hillbilly, country blues, and jazz. Marty Robbins recorded pop songs and gunfighter ballads.

There aren't bright lines between the genres and the performance styles. Some artists seem to epitomize certain genres, perhaps because of success with a song or two that is a great example of a particular genre.

There is a lot of drift also in careers and genres. Eddy Arnold started out as the "Tennessee Plowboy" recording hillbilly songs and ended up as a crooner of countrypolitan songs. Conway Twitty started with rock and rockabilly and ended up singing mainstream country pop. Dolly Parton, Barbara Mandrell and Reba McIntire have also been able to have huge hits with traditional country songs and pop songs.

 

[blowtorch]

Marty Robbins recorded pop songs and gunfighter ballads.

Also rockabilly!

 

[Teleguy61]

You're confusing genres with artists. For example, Merle Haggard recorded country songs and also recorded western swing songs. Bob Wills recorded songs from many genres, including hillbilly, country blues, and jazz. Marty Robbins recorded pop songs and gunfighter ballads.

There aren't bright lines between the genres and the performance styles. Some artists seem to epitomize certain genres, perhaps because of success with a song or two that is a great example of a particular genre.

Yes, thank you Harry.

 

[ndcaster]

If Country is about the rider, Western is all about the horse.

 

[cnlbb]

You're confusing genres with artists.

Only kind of. I used artists to illustrate a point, but know exactly the line you're pursuing and you're correct.

Some artists seem to epitomize certain genres, perhaps because of success with a song or two that is a great example of a particular genre.

Which is what I was aiming for. As it is it's difficult enough to delineate the differences and how the influence of cowboy poetry/folk song (recorded by Lomax's father [although sadly the music was tossed out]) differed from the Appalachian heritage. So I took some (and this is a message board) less rigorous methods of description.

 

[NardeeMacPennis]

 

[screamin eagle]

Only kind of. I used artists to illustrate a point, but know exactly the line you're pursuing and you're correct.

Which is what I was aiming for. As it is it's difficult enough to delineate the differences and how the influence of cowboy poetry/folk song (recorded by Lomax's father [although sadly the music was tossed out]) differed from the Appalachian heritage. So I took some (and this is a message board) less rigorous methods of description.

That is no different than Lomax recording blues musicians in the Carolina's (Piedmont style), the South (Delta style), Oklahoma and Texas (Country style) etc. All the blues with regional styles. Mississippi John Hurt is a good example of this. He is from the Delta south, yet he didn't play in that style--rather a piedmont style. Why? Because the first guitar he learned on belonged to a man that came to visit is mother with frequency. He was from the Carolina's and when he put the guitar down for the night and turned in, MJH would sneak out of bed and try to emulate what he heard that fellow play. In the early days, distance broadcast radio wasn't fully together yet. Thus, people often weren't exposed to elements outside of their immediate environment. So when specific styles started making there rounds outside their region blending the styles became popular.

Early country music was like this too. Bluegrass is the prodigal son of Appalachian, while Nashville was down the mountain. Nashville had folk artists like Jimmy Rogers and Hank Williams, but also pop music leanings in Ernest Tubb, Hank Garland etc.

I don't see the question of Country and Western as simply a matter of chronicling the American musical family tree.

Of course western swing has roots in what Hank Williams done, but I don't see the need to call that it--seems redundant. The question seems to posit how are they different today--not detail me the evolution of 20th century American music.

Oh, and I'm by no means am trying to come off as harsh in any way, just trying to keep a good conversation going.

 

[RomanS]

^^ Spot on. I grew up in Minnesota when Polka was king. It always amazed me how much a 50's Minneapolis Polka fest sounded so much like a Mexicali Wedding.

That's because both have their roots in the same Central European (Bohemia, Bavaria, Austria, mainly), accordion-driven folk music.
I can find some of our local (I'm Austrian) folk songs, translated to Spanish, in TexMex & Norteno music, and I assume, it's the same for Minnesota polka parties (lots of German immigrants there, too, along with the Scandinavians; and a bit farther East, around Chicago, plenty of Poles and Czech, right?)

As for the original question: I always thought the Country part of C&W referred to music coming out of the rural, mostly Appalachian folk tradition (which, in turn, was based on Scottish & Irish music); Western was the much more commercial, urban tradition - singing cowboys in Hollywood movies, and Western Swing music in big city dancehalls.

But as always with music, there are no hard and fast lines, and lots of influences combining usually result in the very best music (rockabilly, anybody!?)

 

[RomanS]

Of course western swing has roots in what Hank Williams done, but I don't see the need to call that it--seems redundant. The question seems to posit how are they different today--not detail me the evolution of 20th century American music.

Western Swing had been around for about two decades BEFORE Hank Williams became famous...

 

[falcon5romeo]

My grandma always called it 'country western music', distinguished from all the other kinds of music.