Thin, tall coils vs. wide, flat coils

[Tatercaster]

What are the sonic differences of these two coil shapes, all else being equal?

 

[JD0x0]

Tall and thin is supposedly 'brighter' and has more noise potential, from outside interference if I'm not mistaken. Wide and flat coil should sound fuller and rounder.

 

[YoGeorge]

Wider coil is more "diffuse" like a humbucker because it picks up sounds from a longer section of the string. And really high order harmonics would cancel each other out.

Narrower coil would get more high end "zing" a la strat or tele pickups because it would not cancel out as many high harmonics.

George

 

[Tatercaster]

A stacked humbucker would not cancel out high order harmonics but would cancel hum, correct?

 

[bchaffin72]

Tall and thin is supposedly 'brighter' and has more noise potential, from outside interference if I'm not mistaken. Wide and flat coil should sound fuller and rounder.

Wider coil is more "diffuse" like a humbucker because it picks up sounds from a longer section of the string. And really high order harmonics would cancel each other out.

Narrower coil would get more high end "zing" a la strat or tele pickups because it would not cancel out as many high harmonics.

George

That's what I understand, too. That's part of what's responsible for the difference in sound between, say, a strat or tele pickup and something like a Jazzmaster pickup. The Jazzmaster is a wide, flat coil vs the taller, narrow coils. I also remember Mike Eldred way back talking about how they trimmed some of the high end off the Custom Shop nocaster of the time by intentionally winding on a slightly shorter bobbin, thus getting a shorter, fatter coil.

 

[Asmith]

Different coil shapes have different capacitance which can roll off the highs of your signal, more wingdings or having wires being packed closer together on average will increase the this capacitance. This increase in capacitance will increase make your signal sound darker. The output issues solve themselves usually as the over wound may be loosing signal due to the capacitance but still had more signal to begin with as they have more coils which increases the inductance(basically a number that is proportional to your signal strength).

Flat wide coils like p90s have about 10,000 turns on them and the coil shape means the wires are closer together as they use thinner (43 AWG) wire I believe, the coil shape also means the wires are closer together as the area to volume ratio of the coil is smaller than a strat coil for example. The strat coils and tele bridge pups use 42 AWG but a tele neck pup will use 43 AWG. A strat coil from 7,500 (very underwound) to 9,000 (very overwound) turns on the bobbin, this is less than the p90 so it will have a smaller capacitance than the p90 also contributing to the brighter tone.

So to summarize there is more than the actual coil that's going on in a some flat and fat wound coils as they are very different. I can't comment on magnet types as both pickup types have used many different magnet types over the years.

But to answer your question a fat, flat coil (p90) will sound darker if wound to the same specs as a thin and tall (strat/tele coil).

 

[Zepfan]

My 60's MIJ 339 sized guitar had 2 single coil pups that are wider than the Fender singles, but not as wide as a P90. They have P90 string spacing with screw A2 poles and the pups are about 1 &1/2" tall. They were unpotted, so they squealed like a stuck pig in the semi-hollow guitar, but in a solid body made of Poplar they were awesome. You could get P90 or Tele tones from them with ease.
Here's a pic of what the 60's MIJ looked like with the pups. Not my guitar, just a pic I found on the net. MIJ Epiphones, Greco and Encore had these pups.

 

[bchaffin72]

So to summarize there is more than the actual coil that's going on in a some flat and fat wound coils as they are very different. I can't comment on magnet types as both pickup types have used many different magnet types over the years.

That is true. I am just assuming that all other things are equal in the pickups in question and that they are of roughly the same basic design. Once we get into different magnet types, wire gauges, and design, then yes, there's more to it than just coil shape.

 

[Asmith]

That is true. I am just assuming that all other things are equal in the pickups in question and that they are of roughly the same basic design. Once we get into different magnet types, wire gauges, and design, then yes, there's more to it than just coil shape.

Sorry I know, I just thought it would be worth mentioning to the OP as he might not have been aware of other differences at hand. Although to be fair Jazzmasters and Stratocasters have a similar number of turns on their pickup coils and have used similar magnets and use the same gauge wire so it's a fair comparison to look at when answering the question. The OP could of asked "What are the sonic differences between a Jazzmaster pickups and a stratocaster pickups?" and would of got some good answers that could be used to answer his original question, since the other specs are almost identical.

 

[YoGeorge]

A stacked humbucker would not cancel out high order harmonics but would cancel hum, correct?

In general, a stacked tele or strat bucker will never sound like a side-by-side bucker specifically for this reason.

However, I am guessing that there might still be some harmonic cancellation since there are 2 coils picking up string vibration and they are in different planes. And the fact that there are 2 coils has to have an effect on sound--do you have two half coils or two full coils, etc? I have found stacks to have less dynamics than single coils as an observation but pickups like Bardens have a LOT of high end harmonics (almost painfully so) and they are stacks but with very low resistance (I remember 4k ohms).

I also remember Gibson's P-100 stacks that players HATED but apparently cutting out the bottom coil made them into righteous sounding P-90 type pickups.

There are also narrow side-by-side buckers like Dimarzio Choppers and Duncan lil 59's and they will never sound like big buckers but don't sound like single coils either (part of this may be the high resistance and bottom magnet construction).

I'll leave stuff to the experts, and will note that while these are generalizations, there are many other factors that affect pickup tone. In recent years, I have found stuff that sounds good and tend to stick with it. Interesting thread topic, however.

George

 

[Asmith]

A stacked humbucker would not cancel out high order harmonics but would cancel hum, correct?

It's quite a strange design really. From what I understand about stacked humbuckers is that you have a normal single coil that is half wound and then finished off by winding the rest in the opposite direction. That's just a simplification of course, you would wind the different directions on two half height bobbins. This results in one coil on the north end of a pole piece and then another reverse wound on the south end of the pole piece (Using a slug would result in both coils on the north end), this would mean that you would have both coils in phase due to the RWRP lower coil? But then if you have a standard single coil the lower half would be out of phase because the lower coil would be no longer RWRP just RP? I know that a standard pickup wind would cover both ends of the pole pieces on one bobbin rather than one bobbin per end of the pole pieces but I'm just talking about it as a simplified model where the two coils would average out anyway. Am I making sense or just talking ****?

Stacked Pickup Cross Section by ashleyjsmith1996, on Flickr

Just a diagram of to show what I mean with the pole piece polarity thing and the coil divided into two.

 

[telemnemonics]

It's quite a strange design really. From what I understand about stacked humbuckers is that you have a normal single coil that is half wound and then finished off by winding the rest in the opposite direction. That's just a simplification of course, you would wind the different directions on two half height bobbins. This results in one coil on the north end of a pole piece and then another reverse wound on the south end of the pole piece (Using a slug would result in both coils on the north end), this would mean that you would have both coils in phase due to the RWRP lower coil? But then if you have a standard single coil the lower half would be out of phase because the lower coil would be no longer RWRP just RP? I know that a standard pickup wind would cover both ends of the pole pieces on one bobbin rather than one bobbin per end of the pole pieces but I'm just talking about it as a simplified model where the two coils would average out anyway. Am I making sense or just talking ****?

Stacked Pickup Cross Section by ashleyjsmith1996, on Flickr

Just a diagram of to show what I mean with the pole piece polarity thing and the coil divided into two.

I'm not sure if you've confused me or not.

AFAIK the polarity of the magnet only has an effect in terms of magnetizing the string above the coil, so that the moving magnet (magnetized string) induces a current in the coil.
So the bottom (RP) of the magnet is not playing a role in the pickups output, because it is not really magnetizing the string (nor is it moving), at least compared to the closer top N polarity magnetizing the moving string.

 

[Asmith]

I'm not sure if you've confused me or not.

AFAIK the polarity of the magnet only has an effect in terms of magnetizing the string above the coil, so that the moving magnet (magnetized string) induces a current in the coil.
So the bottom (RP) of the magnet is not playing a role in the pickups output, because it is not really magnetizing the string (nor is it moving), at least compared to the closer top N polarity magnetizing the moving string.

You are right sorry about that, disregard what I said. I just realsised that it would be the other way around the stacked humbucker would be out of phase and a standard would be out of phase, I think anyway. If the phases are different the cancellation would be minimal as the upper coil would produce a much larger output than the lower coil but I would expect a stacked humbucker to sound slightly more nasally.

 

[Tony Done]

I also remember Gibson's P-100 stacks that players HATED but apparently cutting out the bottom coil made them into righteous sounding P-90 type pickups.


George

I've got P100s in an LP Special and they sound fine through a bright amp. I would be really happy with them were in not for the weight of the guitar.

The P100 design is strange, it is two very big coils, about 18K each, wired in parallel. This means that if you use a single coil, it is 18K, and way too hot to be useful for most purposes.

AS noted by others, the popular wisdom is the wide flat coils sample a wider area of the string than tall thin ones, and therefore aren't as icepicky (is that a word?). I'm a P90 fan, partly for the tone, partly for the adjustable pole pieces.

 

[bchaffin72]

Sorry I know, I just thought it would be worth mentioning to the OP as he might not have been aware of other differences at hand. Although to be fair Jazzmasters and Stratocasters have a similar number of turns on their pickup coils and have used similar magnets and use the same gauge wire so it's a fair comparison to look at when answering the question. The OP could of asked "What are the sonic differences between a Jazzmaster pickups and a stratocaster pickups?" and would of got some good answers that could be used to answer his original question, since the other specs are almost identical.

No worries, I was generalizing a bit anyway.

However, that is what has come to fascinate me about pickups ever since I started learning and built a few of my own. At the core, it's really a dirt simple device and yet, all these other things do go on and make a difference in what the actual tone and output will be.

 

[Tatercaster]

I've been interested in what makes a pickup tick (so to speak) for a while, ever since I saw how a Teisco gold foil went together. Another unique pickup that has caught my attention is the super thin pickups in the "Thin Twin" guitars, which I believe was a Harmony design originally.

 

[Tatercaster]

The Thin Twin:

(Actually a Kay guitar)

 

[YoGeorge]

I've got P100s in an LP Special and they sound fine through a bright amp. I would be really happy with them were in not for the weight of the guitar.

The P100 design is strange, it is two very big coils, about 18K each, wired in parallel. This means that if you use a single coil, it is 18K, and way too hot to be useful for most purposes.

AS noted by others, the popular wisdom is the wide flat coils sample a wider area of the string than tall thin ones, and therefore aren't as icepicky (is that a word?). I'm a P90 fan, partly for the tone, partly for the adjustable pole pieces.

The Duncan Custom and Hot P-90's have 14.5k and 15k of wire, respectively. I have a Quarter Pounder in a rawk Esquire at 15-16k (my version of a Les Paul Junior).

So the cut P-100 might have just been beastly and rawkin' if it really is 18k as you say. It was all over the guitar forums as the thing to do.

George

 

[Tony Done]

^^^^ Yeah, I can see that, for savage overdriven sounds. It wouldn't be what you would call normal P90 territory, not my cup of tea at all. Maybe another of those bits of wikiwisdom.

 

[62 Jazzmaster]

An interesting comparison is the difference between the MiJ Jazzmaster and the AVRI Jazzmaster pickups. The Japanese one on the left is basically a Strat pickup enclosed in a JM pickup cover.