esteban_miguel
TDPRI Member
I'm looking into getting a Princeton Reverb and I'm debating between a vintage black face or a vintage silver face. I would like to know about the pros and cons of each amp. Thanks
Princeton Reverb Blackface vs Princeton Reverb silverface
- Thread starter esteban_miguel
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Not many differences between Blackface and Silverface on Fenders smaller amps.
5U4GB in Silverface, 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier tube in Blackface.
Main difference is quality of cabinets.
Blackface and first year or 2 of Silverface are alot better cabs than later Silverface.
5U4GB in Silverface, 5AR4/GZ34 rectifier tube in Blackface.
Main difference is quality of cabinets.
Blackface and first year or 2 of Silverface are alot better cabs than later Silverface.
Mike Simpson
Doctor of Teleocity
Blackface and possibly early silverface has a screwed in baffle that makes it easy to switch to a 12" speaker and back if you want it original. I gig with a 74 SFPR with a 12" Cannabis Rex speaker, I can't imagine wanting a 10" in it again.
Lowbassnotes
Friend of Leo's
There's usually a substantial difference in price between the two. The black faceplate is going to cost some extra coin.
Go for the SF. Same circuit. Save several hundred. That and the champ had almost no changes. I have a 76 and stuck in a 5v4 to knock the voltages down closer specs. It's also. Slow warmup unlike the 5u4. That and the gz34 will probably put your rail up around 440(ish). Also requires 2 amps vs 3 with the 5u4
BobbyZ
Doctor of Teleocity
You can get a deal on a blackface. All you need to do is find a guy selling one that thinks any amp with out a master volume and fourteen channels is crap.
netspirit
TDPRI Member
Weren't the later BF Princetons built the same as the earliest SF Princetons ?
Not sure what you are talking about.
Blackface came before Silverface. Basically the same except for quality of cabinets.
sparkletele123
Tele-Meister
The schematic for the Princeton had very few changes except for the rectifier across it's entire life (except for early versions prior to the blackface era). There really is almost no BF/SF differences except for cosmetics. Not so for other Fender amps.
The difference in rect. tubes had different bias resistors and that's pretty much it. One had a 22k and the other a 27k IIRC. I put in a bias pot and no matter what tubes (power or rect.) the total bias resistance is always between those 2 values.
I think the bias cap went from 50uf to 70 or 80uf too. Again, very minor changes. Although I would think 80uf would have a pretty lengthy time constant.
esteban_miguel
TDPRI Member
Thanks guys I really appreciate all the feedback,
dragonfly66
Friend of Leo's
There will be a difference in signal caps. I had a BF 64 Princeton Amp (non-reverb) that has the blue molded signal caps and there was a difference between its sound and the SF 77 Princeton Reverb with blue and brown blobs. The BF sounded heavenly. The SF was less sweet, but still ok, just not the same. Probably wouldn't be noticeable in a band, but I heard a difference. There aren't that many signal caps in a Princeton since it is only one channel so if you got an SF and wanted to experiment with different caps it wouldn't be that big of a deal.
If you get a Fender amp with a glued in baffle you can look at the these two projects to make your own removable baffle. It is quite easy and something you can do in one day.
(link removed) - what I used as instruction
Thread include new baffle for a 71 Twin Reverb cab.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-cent...everb-w-1x15-bigger-ot-47omh-fb-resistor.html
If you get a Fender amp with a glued in baffle you can look at the these two projects to make your own removable baffle. It is quite easy and something you can do in one day.
(link removed) - what I used as instruction
Thread include new baffle for a 71 Twin Reverb cab.
http://www.tdpri.com/forum/amp-cent...everb-w-1x15-bigger-ot-47omh-fb-resistor.html
I would change a 12" Cannabis Rex to....
I would change a 12" Cannabis Rex to a 10" JBL K110. I have a 67 PR. I like the Cannabis Rex better than the V30 that was in there when I bought it, in fact, I didn't know it could sound even better till I heard the JBL. The JBL was the stock Fender upgrade speaker back in the day, and I heard one at DiPinto's in Philly recently. The guy said they sold practically any guitar as long as it was played thru that amp! Moderately bright, very focused tone.
Considering the Weber Cali 10" with a large paper "H" dome. They're pretty rare un-reconed, though, so maybe I will just try the Weber.
BTW, I am running the 12" with the 10" baffle. That's the way I got it, and I understand that a lot of people do this and surprisingly it doesn't make much of a difference.
I would change a 12" Cannabis Rex to a 10" JBL K110. I have a 67 PR. I like the Cannabis Rex better than the V30 that was in there when I bought it, in fact, I didn't know it could sound even better till I heard the JBL. The JBL was the stock Fender upgrade speaker back in the day, and I heard one at DiPinto's in Philly recently. The guy said they sold practically any guitar as long as it was played thru that amp! Moderately bright, very focused tone.
Considering the Weber Cali 10" with a large paper "H" dome. They're pretty rare un-reconed, though, so maybe I will just try the Weber.
BTW, I am running the 12" with the 10" baffle. That's the way I got it, and I understand that a lot of people do this and surprisingly it doesn't make much of a difference.
I'm running a 1965 Blackface PR with a 12" speaker (Vintage 30) and the 10" speaker/baffleboard/grill/amp logo are in a box in my attic.
With a blackface PR the baffle board is screwed on. You can simply unscrew it and remove it. The first year Silverface (1967?) with the aluminum trim ring is the same way. When the aluminum trim ring went away in early '68 they actually used biscuit joinery to glue the BB in place. They are impossible to remove without cutting the biscuits holding the BB in place. Once cut, there is no way to attach a BB without further modifications.
With a blackface PR the baffle board is screwed on. You can simply unscrew it and remove it. The first year Silverface (1967?) with the aluminum trim ring is the same way. When the aluminum trim ring went away in early '68 they actually used biscuit joinery to glue the BB in place. They are impossible to remove without cutting the biscuits holding the BB in place. Once cut, there is no way to attach a BB without further modifications.
Actually, there is a difference in the sound of a Princeton (non-Reverb) and a Princeton Reverb no matter if it's Blackface or Silverface or what color the signal caps are.
The reverb on the PR uses one half of a gain stage on one of the pre-amp tubes. Obviously, without a Reverb the Princeton doesn't. So, the Princeton has more gain and different touch dynamics.
So, I don't at all doubt that the non-reverb Blackface Princeton sounded different than the Silverface Princeton Reverb. They always have. Now, if you're one of those folks that can hear a difference in signal caps then, maybe you heard that difference, too. But I'm not one of those people.
I had a 65 blackface princeton non reverb with the magical blue molded caps and a 76 Princeton reverb at the same time. The Princeton non reverb on 9 sounded exactly like the Princeton reverb on about 3 or 4. The non reverb may have been a little louder when both were in clean territory but the tone was the same. I placed them back to back so I could use the same speaker and cab with each. I even used the same tubes in each amp. As long as the signal caps are within spec. I can't hear a difference either. If there is I'm glad I didn't hear it. One less thing I have to be concerned about in an amp.
Vizcaster
Poster Extraordinaire
I had a 70 or 71 early silverface Princeton reverb, before the silver drip edge frame around the speaker cloth. They added a polarity switch around '71 I believe, but you want to make sure the chassis ground and third-prong on the plug are still connected.
E5RSY
Doctor of Teleocity
And the Deluxe Reverb, as well. Everything "above" the DR got the CBS changes. Deluxe Reverb and below, I wouldn't care which color the faceplate was.
Scott
ZZB3
Tele-Holic
I have and use as my main amp a 1965 Princeton Reverb. A great amp. I do have a Weber Speaker in it. Size, sound is just about perfect. Either blackface or silverface will make you a great amp
