Rattlecan epoxy as a pickguard finish

[Rockdog]

I've got a can of sprayable gloss black epoxy that I'm going to test on an old white pickguard. I figure it's worth a shot to see if it works rather than buying a new black pg.

One of the solvents in the epoxy is acetone, which I know will dissolve certain plastics. Methinks my test pickguard is PVC. Think it'll hold up?

 

[jwj4856]

I sprayed one a little while back that turned out really well. Be sure to spray in several light coats, first one being very light to keep it from dissolving any of the pickguard. I put 6 thin coats on the one I did.

 

[BradKM]

Krylon makes a line of sprays now designed for use on plastics.

 

[Rockdog]

Krylon makes a line of sprays now designed for use on plastics.

Yeah, I saw those and almost went with the Krylon. I figured the epoxy would be more durable in the end, and it was a bit cheaper.

 

[Silverface]

FWIW Rattle-can "epoxy" - just like "epoxy porch and deck paint" that comes in one container is not really "epoxy" as most think of it.

You can't "precatalyze" epoxy. Both polyamide and polyamine types need the components separated and cure after combining them (**really well**) by chemical reaction - to keep it simple for non-chemists (and I'm not one either) molecules in one component have to "mate" with molecules in the second component (activator, catalyst, "part B" or whatever the manufacturer calls it ) to form a cohesive epoxy resin that is essentially more than the sum of the parts (air and moisture having either good or bad effects on it, depending on the formula).

Spray-can epoxy and brushable single component or "epoxy fortified" materials have some amount of specific epoxy resin that reacts upon exposure to air (you can recognize the better types of non-aerosol materials by them going bad a month or two after partial use), but barely enough to really provide added durability.

It's really just a marketing ploy - most consumers believe "epoxy" is better than "paint", whether acrylic, vinyl/acrylic or oil-based enamel. So an inconsequential amount of epoxy resin that undergoes a partial oxidation cure (reacts with air) is added, the word Epoxy slapped on the label and the price raised a buck..or two...or three. There are NO regulations governing the amount necessary to qualify using "epoxy" on the label.

If one of the solvents is acetone it's either a hybrid lacquer, polyester, polyurethane or alkyd enamel.

With anything like that if people would post the product and brand some of us can usually tell you what it really is. But acetone is used in a wide range of products because it's a zero-VOC solvent. The only thing it tells me for sure is that the acetone will evaporate VERY quickly.

 

[Colt W. Knight]

I've got a can of sprayable gloss black epoxy that I'm going to test on an old white pickguard. I figure it's worth a shot to see if it works rather than buying a new black pg.

One of the solvents in the epoxy is acetone, which I know will dissolve certain plastics. Methinks my test pickguard is PVC. Think it'll hold up?

What kind of pickguard is it? Telecaster? Stratocaster?

 

[Rockdog]

What kind of pickguard is it? Telecaster? Stratocaster?

The one I'm gonna test the "epoxy" on is an old Tele pg from a kit I've had laying around for awhile. I probably won't ever use it because the neck pup hole doesn't even fit a standard Tele neck pup. I had to use sandpaper and a nail file to widen the hole, and it never did look right.

Anyhow, if it works on the test pg, I'm going to apply it to a white Esquire pg I got from GFS.

 

[flatfive]

Hi Silverface. I know you're not saying otherwise -- you're just
talking about the language that manufacturers use -- but I thought
I'd mention that neither of the two parts of epoxy is a
catalyst.

I bring this up because I think this is a common misconception.
I only learned differently recently while reading up to try to
understand why my epoxy wasn't curing.

FWIW Rattle-can "epoxy" - just like "epoxy porch and deck paint" that comes in one container is not really "epoxy" as most think of it.

You can't "precatalyze" epoxy. Both polyamide and polyamine types need the components separated and cure after combining them (**really well**) by chemical reaction - to keep it simple for non-chemists (and I'm not one either) molecules in one component have to "mate" with molecules in the second component (activator, catalyst, "part B" or whatever the manufacturer calls it ) to form a cohesive epoxy resin that is essentially more than the sum of the parts (air and moisture having either good or bad effects on it, depending on the formula)....

 

[jefrs]

Hi Silverface. I know you're not saying otherwise -- you're just
talking about the language that manufacturers use -- but I thought
I'd mention that neither of the two parts of epoxy is a
catalyst.

I bring this up because I think this is a common misconception.
I only learned differently recently while reading up to try to
understand why my epoxy wasn't curing.

Real epoxy comes in two parts, resin and hardener. The hardener is a cross-linking agent to zip-up the resin, indeed not a catalyst as you say. Yet catalysts are added to speed up or slow down the cure. As are plasticisers to regulate the hardness of the cured resin.

For best results heat the work. If you can heat the job to 50°C then 24h epoxy will not only flow and stick better, but will cure in 20-30 minutes and full strength in ~2h
If you want to remove the stuff then heat to a little over 100°C (boiling water won't work). We used to use 100:1 and 20:1 liquid mixes. If you made a mistake and heated the 20:1 potting compound, it would suddenly set solid whilst you were stirring it. The 100:1 was a very slow set, heating it would get the bubbles out of it (same with twin pack). The /are/ true epoxy paints but they are two-part, some can even be sprayed with mix at nozzle (industrial applications).

 

[dannew02]

I painted a guardplate (Epi brand S-type copy if it matters, single ply vinyl plate) and I got "playing wear" thru the paint fairly quickly. Since I went from white to black it didn't look nice either. Just sayin'. The paint seemed to stick just fine, it just wore off where my hand/pick hit it and went right down to the vinyl.

 

[Silverface]

cat·a·lyze (ktl-z)
tr.v. cat·a·lyzed, cat·a·lyz·ing, cat·a·lyz·es
1. To modify, especially to increase, the rate of (a chemical reaction) by catalysis.
2. To bring about; initiate: "The technology bred of science has catalyzed stupendous economic growth" (Nature).
3. To produce fundamental change in; transform: changes in student enrollment that have catalyzed the educational system.

Flatfive - manufacturers use the term because it is the the most precise scientific term for the material. It does not just "harden" the resin component, but even if that was the only function it still fits the dictionary definitions of "catalyst".

Your "I bring this about only because..." comment was irrelevant, and I don't know why splitting hairs over commonly-used product terms is even necessary, unless one has an urgent need to see his name in print - tied to absolutely useless information.

jefrs - "crosslinking" by definition brings about a change in the original characteristics of a material and by definition is catalyzation in the context of fluid-applied coatings.

With epoxy systems metallic catalyzing agents are usually part of the "B" mix and are what control the cure time, pencil hardness, mandrel test flexibility and other qualities. But they are part of the formula of the "B" component that is far from just a "hardener".

IF you wanted to precisely and correctly categorize the "B" component of an epoxy coating you wouldn't have a name - you'd have a paragraph.

If you guys want about 15 pounds of white papers on the subject let me know.

But aside from all this "I'm more right than you are" BS "catalyst" is the common vernacular term for the non-resin portion of a two-component (three component when there are pigments or other additives introduced to the mix separately) fluid-applied coating; in some cases (e.g. polyurea - an urethane offshoot, not an epoxy - although many do use an epoxy-like amine-terminated polymer) the resin component is the "B" material, with the "A" (an isocyanate) is used with multiple types of resin depending on the required qualities.

Now back to the thread that was still in progress after I cautioned that aerosol epoxies might not provide any extra durabiity some might expect when they see the word "epoxy"....

 

[Rockdog]

Update

I applied two light coats of the gloss black "epoxy" and this is the result after 36 hours dry time. It looks pretty damn good. There's somewhat of an orange peel texture, but I'm kinda digging it.

Sorry about the low-res pic. It's from a camera phone.

 

[Colt W. Knight]

Your "I bring this about only because..." comment was irrelevant, and I don't know why splitting hairs over commonly-used product terms is even necessary, unless one has an urgent need to see his name in print - tied to absolutely useless information.
"....

Don't you do this all the time in these finishing threads?

 

[flatfive]

deleted post

 

[Vizcaster]

Don't you do this all the time in these finishing threads?

Colt and flatfive, shouldn't we lobby for an "ignore" button like some other forums have so we don't have to be bothered when this guy posts?

 

[TDPRI]

Colt and flatfive, shouldn't we lobby for an "ignore" button like some other forums have so we don't have to be bothered when this guy posts?

No lobbying needed we've had the ignore feature for 6 years now. Just use it.

Click on the username of the poster you want to ignore and you'll see the option to ignore that user right there.

 

[Silverface]

Guys, I apologize if I come on too strong at times. Generally my thought is to post technically correct information, and usually (granted, not always) controversial posts I make are in response to others "correcting" technical information.

But my intent is to ensure folks here don't get mislead into thinking products are something they aren't, or are being directed to use unsafe procedures. The ultimate goal (I hope) for all of us is to help each other achieve the desired results in a safe, cost-effective manner.

I'll try to tone it down a notch - I just hope it's understood that I am not trying to tick anyone off when I point out technical errors or conflicts; if you feel I have please contact me directly and I'll change the wording where appropriate. It's always better to handle that kind of stuff offline.

Thanks -

Jim

 

[Rockdog]

Thanks Jim...that brings closure to yet another one of my inadvertantly controversial threads.