Lowering Split Saddle

[P Thought]

I know it seems pretty simple, just shave the same amount of bone off each side at the bottom, but the job scares me. How do I keep it true on both pieces, flat on the bottom in both directions without changing the radius or break angle up top, and with both pieces the same amount lowered, without going too low? Suggestions welcome

I've pondered this for months now. Pondering of course delays action, sometimes forever. The scary part is if I screw up I'll need a new saddle.

My thought now is to leave the original saddles alone, and see if I can't make new ones from blanks--I have a couple in a parts jar

I did manage to search out the fretboard radius--14"--for this model; that should be helpful in shaping the two pieces so their arc is consistent E to e

Now I've told you more than I know myself. As I said earlier, suggestions are welcome

 

[Boreas]

It should be no more daunting than a single saddle. Think of the job as just two saddles. But it is more critical that you mark/measure both the same way prior to sanding. If you want to be safe, as you say, you may want to start over with new material.

Are those casein bridge pins? I love those.

 

[KokoTele]

Did it come with electronics? All of the split-saddle ones I've come across with electronics have them attached to the saddle with a little bracket. It attaches in such a way that you really can't take meat off of the bottom, you gotta do it from the top.

The question of how much meat to take off is easy: Figure out how much height change you want at the 12th fret, then double it. That's how much you need to remove at the saddle. (It's geometry; specifically the rule of similar triangles.)

The first step is to adjust the truss rod so that the neck has the proper amount of relief.

Put your sandpaper on a hard, flat surface. 120-150 grit works great for this. Mark the saddle with how much you want to remove and sand down to your line. Try to make sure that you're not leaning the saddle and sanding the bottom at an angle. You can use a block of wood as a guide.

If all of this seems too tough for you, you might consider taking it to a pro for a setup. A setup is cheaper than new saddles.

 

[Freeman Keller]

I think Koko covers it pretty well. I would treat it as two separate saddles with roughly the same action height for the 2nd and 3rd strings (there might be one or two thousands difference. I tend to draw lots of lines on saddles any time I work on them, one at the bridge starting point. As he says take 2X off for every X you want to lower at the 12th fret. I put the saddle on a smooth surface, hold a feeler blade against both sides and draw fine pencil lines. Sand to the lines (I do it in a couple of steps so I don't go too far.

Split saddles makes intonation a bit easier and setup a bit more difficult. Worst thing you go too far and have to make a new one, not a big deal.

 

[nc0gnit000]

I think Koko covers it pretty well. I would treat it as two separate saddles with roughly the same action height for the 2nd and 3rd strings (there might be one or two thousands difference. I tend to draw lots of lines on saddles any time I work on them, one at the bridge starting point. As he says take 2X off for every X you want to lower at the 12th fret. I put the saddle on a smooth surface, hold a feeler blade against both sides and draw fine pencil lines. Sand to the lines (I do it in a couple of steps so I don't go too far.

Split saddles makes intonation a bit easier and setup a bit more difficult. Worst thing you go too far and have to make a new one, not a big deal.

how much do you want to lower it?

I haven't worked on a split saddle before but on 1 piece saddles, I draw pencil a pencil line on it, tape the saddle, put it in a vise and carefully file down to the line. Shouldn't be too much more difficult to take equal amounts off the split saddles.
I've done it on maybe half a dozen martins.

I'm surprised you're asking. You're the guitar builder that I would definitely listen to if I had any questions or issues.

 

[P Thought]

If all of this seems too tough for you, you might consider taking it to a pro for a setup. A setup is cheaper than new saddles.

I decided that if I keep thinking about this until I gain the confidence to do it, then if I actually get around to doing it...I might get old and die first

I packed the Tak up, and one of my electrics while I was at it, and took them in to our local shop for setup work. They'll be back in a day or two

 

[KokoTele]

Sometimes that’s the best way.

None of these set up tasks are hard, but a pro has the advantage of having done them a billion times. If it’s not something you’re going to do frequently as usually a better investment to hire someone.

 

[P Thought]

Yep. I want to spend more time playing, less time thinking

 

[Monoprice99]

I bought a spare saddle piece, just in case I messed up a CP-100 piezo pickup. And instead of taking material out from the bottom, I slotted it from the top & retained the intonation. Worked out so well, I have a spare saddle piece now & was my $ 10 insurance policy. It's like an intonated nut slot.

 

[Charlie Bernstein]

Yep. I want to spend more time playing, less time thinking

Everything I try to fix ends up costing more to get my fix fixed that if I'd just paid someone else to fix it in the first place.

Know what you can do. Know what you can't.

 

[Boreas]

Yep. I want to spend more time playing, less time thinking

My motto. I think it is on my family coat of arms - in German of course...

 

[Jakedog]

Ah… the dreaded Takamine split saddle bridge! I know it well.

My EAN10C had that. It was no problem to just pull them out and shave off the bottoms. Turned out great. Later at a gig a guitar tech friend of mine complimented me on getting them completely even and uniform. He said that it’s no small task with those splits.

I had to confess, that hadn’t even occurred to me. I pulled em, marked em, sanded em, and stuck em back in. They came out perfect. This is the kind of crazy crap that leads my wife to tell everyone I’m “charmed”.

 

[P Thought]

I tend to draw lots of lines on saddles any time I work on them, one at the bridge starting point.

That was going to be my first move. Another move I considered repeatedly was to take the guitar up to you and ask you to show me how to do it. Pretty long trip, though

There is a new person now handling repairs and setups at our local music store; the owner is stepping back a bit. I hesitated a bit because of that, but also I trust the owner to protect the shop's reputation

I think the tech did fine, and I know I'd have continued dithering over the job for months or years and never get it done, so I'm happy. I'm taking both guitars in a little while to my friend Larry's house, and I'll get a chance to "play them in"

 

[P Thought]

This is the kind of crazy crap that leads my wife to tell everyone I’m “charmed”.

I've heard enough of your stories to know that your wife is a big part of that charm

 

[Freeman Keller]

That was going to be my first move. Another move I considered repeatedly was to take the guitar up to you and ask you to show me how to do it. Pretty long trip, though

There is a new person now handling repairs and setups at our local music store; the owner is stepping back a bit. I hesitated a bit because of that, but also I trust the owner to protect the shop's reputation

I think the tech did fine, and I know I'd have continued dithering over the job for months or years and never get it done, so I'm happy. I'm taking both guitars in a little while to my friend Larry's house, and I'll get a chance to "play them in"

If you ever do want to come up my way (5 hours from PDX) the coffee pot would be on and there's always a cold one in the fridge. The good part of letting an unknown do it is if they screw up its easy (and good practice) to make a new one. I've also learned with saddles and nuts to creep up on the final setting, take a couple of passes with a sanding block or file, drop it in, try it out. Its easy to take more off but hard to put it back on.

 

[telemnemonics]

Why cut the bottom to lower the top?
In fact you can lower the top one string at a time with any sort of V or O shaped file to nail each string height, pull the string file the slot tune it up and repeat until perfect.
Then take the whole mess apart and even out the tops at the heights of your grooves.
Keep your flat right angle bottom intact with no making sure you don't tilt which is not a machinists method for accuracy.

I read these days people lower nut sluts from the bottom too.
Upside downside right!

 

[Freeman Keller]

Why cut the bottom to lower the top?
In fact you can lower the top one string at a time with any sort of V or O shaped file to nail each string height, pull the string file the slot tune it up and repeat until perfect.
Then take the whole mess apart and even out the tops at the heights of your grooves.
Keep your flat right angle bottom intact with no making sure you don't tilt which is not a machinists method for accuracy.

I read these days people lower nut sluts from the bottom too.
Upside downside right!

If I am happy with the shape of a saddle and its intonation I always lower from the bottom. I take large amounts off on a belt sander, small amounts on a piece of 220 sand paper against a small block of wood to keep it square. If I'm starting from scratch I make the saddle the same radius as the fretboard, make the bass side about 20 thou higher than the treble, intonate it, then lower as needed by sanding the bottom

I wouldn't ever lower a nut from the bottom.

 

[P Thought]

My, my, my. . .

Good time at Larry's yesterday, and I have "Rose" out this morning already

From now on I'm going to try not to let my guitars lie around waiting for adjustments while I look for my round tuit. This one is a "cannon", as they say, and now it's fun to play, too. I'm glad I took it in

 

[KokoTele]

Why cut the bottom to lower the top?
In fact you can lower the top one string at a time with any sort of V or O shaped file to nail each string height, pull the string file the slot tune it up and repeat until perfect.
Then take the whole mess apart and even out the tops at the heights of your grooves.
Keep your flat right angle bottom intact with no making sure you don't tilt which is not a machinists method for accuracy.

I read these days people lower nut sluts from the bottom too.
Upside downside right!

It’s a very simple task to file off material from the bottom. It’s a more involved task to remove material from the top then reshape and radius the saddle.

I haven’t heard of anyone lowering nut slots by removing material from the bottom. That seems like the hard way around. On almost guitars the nut is glued, so you’d have to deal with glue residue, etc. In that case the simpler task is to just file the slot.

 

[telemnemonics]

It’s a very simple task to file off material from the bottom. It’s a more involved task to remove material from the top then reshape and radius the saddle.

I haven’t heard of anyone lowering nut slots by removing material from the bottom. That seems like the hard way around. On almost guitars the nut is glued, so you’d have to deal with glue residue, etc. In that case the simpler task is to just file the slot.

The gear chat descriptions of lowering nuts from the bottom is those who buy new pre slotted nut blanks and have no nut files.
Amazing how many times I have read accounts of this, and fair enough that hobbyists trying to learn might think pre slotted means usable nut slots are there already as opposed to suggested spacing has been marked to make the product appear more finished for an extra $5.

As for filing the bottom of a saddle, I can understand the reasoning that the shaping is harder to do well than flat across the bottom.

Many things we choose are harder to do than other options we might consider!
Acoustic guitars typically have higher action and are not expected to play up the neck like an electric.
I have no such acceptance of the acoustic as a higher action instrument.

To make an acoustic play like an electric is harder.
Not like a shredder guitar or like the bragging over 1.3mm action at the 17th fret on the low E or whatever hobby techs keep measuring and posting as attained awesome action.

But ideal low action generally requires each string height be approached individually, which can only be done from the top. Anyhow, it works; and while harder it is more accurate if the goal is more particular than the average quality acoustic playability.
I figured @P Thought has more experience than most gear chatters so offered a "harder better" option!