Vinyl vs. cloth wiring

[Shorty Medlock]

I like the look and feel of doing wiring with vintage style pushback cloth wiring. Just something about it makes it feel "right".

When I finally pull the trigger on an amp build, sure to be a Deluxe Reverb, would it make any sense to wire the amp with cloth wire?

I'm thinking the common gauge would be 18...

Now would be a good time to end my hypocrisy and replace the 120 year old knob and tube wiring in my attic!!!

 

[Fenderbaum]

For amp go vinyl.
Cloth still only exists today because of vintage correctness.

 

[Jon Snell]

Cloth covered wire is what it says, "Cloth Covered".
The insulation is usually PVC or a mixture of PVC and PTFE etc.
I am old enough to remember rewiring houses with cloth covered rubber insulated wire itself moulded in lead covering.
The rubber breaks up and disintegrates after 30 or so years and becomes dangerous. Appart from cost, that is why we stopped using it back in the late 1940s.
Remember your Mum or Nan, ironing ready for school on Sunday evenings, listening to the wireless and the iron had cloth covered wire? That was cloth on rubber, very important back in the day as it allowed the wire to glide smoothly over the work, avoiding snagging. Nowadays cloth on PVC.

So, to sum up; modern cloth covered wire, within equipment, is there for asthaetics only. The insulation is of PVC or a derivative thereof.
Cloth covered wire is also a pain to strip with professional wire strippers, it doubles the time required to wire a guitar or amplifier.

 

[Vibroluxer]

At the end of the day the electrons don't know the difference.

 

[Pete Farrington]

Cloth covered wire is also a pain to strip with professional wire strippers, it doubles the time required to wire a guitar or amplifier.

Just push the insulation back. That got me at first when I did a build with it.

 

[Uncle Daddy]

Just push the insulation back. That got me at first when I did a build with it.

I stretch the cloth insulation before snipping the wire, so it doesn't bunch up when it's pushed back.

 

[Peegoo]

I stopped using pushback wire in amps and guitars years ago...unless a client specifically requests it. Not worth the additional fuss.

 

[Billy3]

It doesn't make any noticeable sonic difference

 

[Boreas]

I like it and use it in my guitars. I have never built an amp (hope to) but I probably wouldn't use it - mostly to make wiring easier. I would probably use the same pre-tinned stranded wire (sans cloth) which is one of the main things I like about the cloth stuff. Stiff, formable, and stays where you put it. But I do like the way cloth looks and ages. Besides - mice gotta eat too!

Guess I am not much help...

 

[King Fan]

Heh, you've opened a big can of opinions. Both (stranded-but-tinned) 'topcoat' or (the good, 'Fender-style') cloth will build a fine amp. They have offsetting advantages -- topcoat is easier to strip and doesn't fray. Cloth has a learning curve to avoid fraying, but fray doesn't affect function, and cloth does take and hold shape just a bit better than topcoat (vinyl is less flexible than cloth). Cloth looks trad, topcoat looks modern.

EDIT: Note there are *many* 'worse' kinds of cloth *and* vinyl wire out there, or even cloth over vinyl (gah). For examples (no endorsement) of the good stuff, see Hoffman Amp Parts or Mojotone ('Fender' cloth) and AES or Amplified Parts (they sell what I call 'topcoat).

I'm thinking the common gauge would be 18...

But *size* matters. The standard (and easiest, and widely available) gauge is 22; 18 is bulky and hard to work. Many folks use 18 for heater filaments, but it's not necessary in an amp -- Marshall used 22 -- and heaters are a place where ease of shaping and fitting really matter.

You *may* be able to see subtle 'behavior' differences in this amp where I used both as a test; the cloth is obviously on the right, preamp side. If not clearly visible, just know the builder (me) found the strip-vs-shape tradeoff obvious -- and basically unimportant.

 

[Euphonica]

Why would one ever need to strip cloth wire?

 

[Bill Moore]

Having repaired many cloth covered circuits in old automotive applications, I dislike the stuff. However, I doubt a guitar amp, (or guitar), will ever have that much abuse. When I built my first amp, an amp tech friend gave me some push back wire, but I wanted to make my build conform to the colors on the Fender schematic. I bought several rolls of the solid cloth covered insulated wire, and have been using it since, I like the look, it holds shape, and I don't worry about insulation breakdown.
(I am using up the black push back wire on my ground jumpers, and shielding cap leads on the pots).

 

[schmee]

I like the look and feel of doing wiring with vintage style pushback cloth wiring. Just something about it makes it feel "right".

When I finally pull the trigger on an amp build, sure to be a Deluxe Reverb, would it make any sense to wire the amp with cloth wire?

I'm thinking the common gauge would be 18...

Now would be a good time to end my hypocrisy and replace the 120 year old knob and tube wiring in my attic!!!

I always use the push back wire. I have tried other plastic coated wire, if you buy the right stuff it's OK, but more work..

NO! 18 gage is too heavy. Use the standard 22 gage. I even use it on the green wire for heaters. The 18 gage places too much stress on the modern cheap thin solder tabs of tube sockets IMHO. H
harder to work with too and unnecessary.

Beware that push back wire can be terrible if you buy the wrong stuff, fraying heavily at the end you just cut. I buy all mine from Marsh Amps, it's the cotton waxed type and is great, and they sell by the foot reasonable. Also, push back wire has a solid core which stays arranged/shaped where you put it.

Plastic coated wire isn't bad if you buy the right stuff, it's more work though. You want wire that is tinned throughout. That way the individual strands are all soldered together with no fraying, easy soldering and no corrosion. It will not stay as easily in the shape you put it in as solid core wire.

Tinned wire will look something like this throughout:

 

[Frisco 57]

I've always use cloth push back wire on my Tele & Strat control cavity assemblies. My last partscaster was constructed around a pair of old Telecaster pickups from 1972 with plastic coated lead wires. I had a hard time coming up with the proper sized plastic coated wire to wire up the volume & tone circuit.

 

[tele_savales]

I think I've found the wire of choice for me in the topcoat stuff that AES sells. Pre-tinned, holds it shape reasonably well, will sort of blend in w vintage wire (say 70's onward) in an old amp, and the price is very decent.
I like some things about pushback wire but I'm too heavy handed to keep it from looking terrible by the time I'm done with a build. If you're really attached to the vintage look, though, it's really the only choice.
This cloth wire in the Traynor I'm working on is interesting- really holds it shape well and doesn't seem to fray. Stranded. Kind of looks like transformer lead wire but not as heavy. Also sucks to strip, doesn't push pack at all. I'd keep some of it on hand just for the heck of it if I knew where to get some.

 

[gkterry]

as a long time electronics tech, I find pushback wire a real pain! If the insulation needs to be trimmed it is difficult to get all the frayed pieces trimmed. With vinyl coated wire I can strip it and be on my way. Electrons do not care whether the wire is vinyl or cloth. I am much more into function and efficient work practices than making something that is never seen look vintage correct.

 

[Lowerleftcoast]

I like the look and feel of doing wiring with vintage style pushback cloth wiring. Just something about it makes it feel "right".

When I finally pull the trigger on an amp build, sure to be a Deluxe Reverb, would it make any sense to wire the amp with cloth wire?

I'm thinking the common gauge would be 18.

You are already sold on it. May as well use it. As others have said, it conforms well when positioned. Solid core and stranded/tinned push back are available. Like most solid core wire, solid core push back wire will break easily. I like and use 22AWG stranded tinned push back wire. It just looks right in vintage style amps. It holds shape. If you have issues with fraying, a little nail polish solves it. I use 22AWG for heaters as well.

FYI the cloth wire will take paint or ink. (At times, when I have run out of the color I want, I have used water base art acrylics (I have it on hand) and use white cloth wire to make any color I want. I have also used india ink for black.)

Concerns: A few years ago the specs on cloth push-back wire claimed a 300v rating. Lately, I have found no rating. I don't believe the insulation has changed, maybe the manufacturers want to avoid litigation.

 

[Lowerleftcoast]

Also sucks to strip, doesn't push pack at all. I'd keep some of it on hand just for the heck of it if I knew where to get some.

I think TubeDepot has wire like that. It is cloth covered PVC. It does not push-back. I bet it doesn't strip well. Iirc they sell 18 and 20AWG... no 22AWG.

 

[tele_savales]

I think TubeDepot has wire like that. It is cloth covered PVC. It does not push-back. I bet it doesn't strip well. Iirc they sell 18 and 20AWG... no 22AWG.

I tried some of that stuff, and the sheath tore itself to shreds when I was not very aggressively twisting it in a drill for some heater wiring.

 

[King Fan]

Opinions, tastes, and styles vary.

Why would one ever need to strip cloth wire?

Heh, you're from NOLA? I'm tempted to quote Louis Armstrong -- "If you gotta ask, you'll never know."

But for me, pushing back cloth makes a fat caterpillar of insulation on short runs. I prefer to strip the wire in that setting.