Saddle position after intonation?

[bglaze]

So, I know there is no "correct" saddle position. Similar to how there is no "correct" tuner rotation...

However, after intonation, many of my Strats have somewhat resembled this pattern:

Whereas, on my American Pro II, after setup and intonation, my saddles look like this:

For reference, I have pretty low action. My trem is floating about 1.25mm above the body. My strings are each about 1.25mm above the 12th fret. And, my neck relief is right around .005".

Also, not to get too meticulous with the details, but my pickup heights sit at the following:

Neck pickup: 2mm / 1.6mm
Middle pickup: 1.6mm / 1.3mm
Bridge pickup: 1.2mm / 1mm

I measured and verified that each side of the bridge is equidistant from the nut, and my low-E saddle measures 25.5" right where the string hits the saddle.

I'm not really concerned about the difference in position vs. what I typically see, but I am a little curious about what might cause this pattern variation across different guitars.

I *am* using Highwood saddles, but my saddle positions were the same when I was using the stock Fender vintage-style saddles.

The one thing that does bug me slightly is that my high-E saddle is less than 1mm from the pivot screw (not even wide enough for a medium pick to fit in the gap), and though all other strings are perfectly intonated, the High-E string is still just a tad flat. I don't want to move it any closer to the pivot screw, because I'd still like to use my tremolo occasionally.

Any educated opinions on what might cause variations in saddle position? Also, has anyone else had issues with saddles snuggling a bit too close to pivot screws to reach intonation?

 

[schmee]

Your Strat pic looks close to all my Strats.

 

[bglaze]

Your Strat pic looks close to all my Strats.

Oh, that's cool to know. Thanks!

 

[schmee]

Oh, that's cool to know. Thanks!

It is intriguing that different guitars have different 'shapes' to the alignment of saddles though. I mean; ...you have 6 strings between two points, the nut and the bridge, if the guitars are the same scale, why wouldn't they be near identical within reason?
But some guitars are even close to the Strat "two stairstep" shape.

 

[bglaze]

It is intriguing that different guitars have different 'shapes' to the alignment of saddles though. I mean; ...you have 6 strings between two points, the nut and the bridge, if the guitars are the same scale, why wouldn't they be near identical within reason?
But some guitars are even close to the Strat "two stairstep" shape.

Right. I can't understand it. And, string brand/gauge didn't seem to matter much, either. I switched from 9s to 10s on this strat, and my intonation only changed slightly.

 

[eallen]

All the strats I build I have never looked any different than the hard tail example you show whether hard or trem.

Are your pickup measurments with the strings fretted at the last fret? If those are open string measurments your pickups are likely pulling your strings out of intonation. If they are open string measurments, drop your pickups down significantly and then try intonating and see where the saddles land. If they end up in a different location it was you pickups. To adjust them, start by putting your neck pickup with unfretted string 2 nickel thicknesses, about 3.8mm, and treble side to 1 nickle, about 1.9mm away. Adjust the output of your middle and then bridge to match. While the bridge has an anchor point to minimize the string flex of the magnetic pull the further away a pup is the more susceptible it is. Even still, if those are open string measuments I never run bridge pups that close your for that very reason.

Eric

 

[bglaze]

All the strats I build I have never looked any different than the hard tail example you show whether hard or trem.

Are your pickup measurments with the strings fretted at the last fret? If those are open string measurments your pickups are likely pulling your strings out of intonation. If they are open string measurments, drop your pickups down significantly and then try intonating and see where the saddles land. If they end up in a different location it was you pickups. To adjust them, start by putting your neck pickup with unfretted string 2 nickel thicknesses, about 3.8mm, and treble side to 1 nickle, about 1.9mm away. Adjust the output of your middle and then bridge to match. While the bridge has an anchor point to minimize the string flex of the magnetic pull the further away a pup is the more susceptible it is. Even still, if those are open string measuments I never run bridge pups that close your for that very reason.

Eric

The pickup measurements I gave were with the strings fretted at the last fret. However, your general advice is actually a great place for me to experiment, so I'm going lower the pickups and re-intonate, and see how it turns out.

 

[bglaze]

@eallen Welp, it was worth a try, but it didn't change much. When I flattened my pickups the intonation on all my strings pretty much stayed the same. I did have to adjust my low-E string a few turns toward the bridge, but otherwise nothing much was needed. I am using a Strobostomp HD pedal tuner for measuring. I raised them back up, and I had to re-adjust my low-E again slightly. But, the pattern is pretty much the same as the picture in the OP. /shrug

 

[eallen]

Make sure your nut slots are decent height as well as cut with the right width. You might try a little pencil graphit in that slot to make sure it isn't binding. Does the neck by chance have any twist to it?

 

[Killing Floor]

I think you need to check the nut slots on the AmPro. If it intonates that’s fine. But the positions indicate witness points are off. Check the slot and make sure the A is not grabbing.

 

[bglaze]

Make sure your nut slots are decent height as well as cut with the right width. You might try a little pencil graphit in that slot to make sure it isn't binding. Does the neck by chance have any twist to it?

I think you need to check the nut slots on the AmPro. If it intonates that’s fine. But the positions indicate witness points are off. Check the slot and make sure the A is not grabbing.

I'll definitely check these. This guitar did come with 9's from the factory, and I upgraded to 10's. I am using Lizard Spit Slick Nutz in all my nut slots. I also upgraded the tuners from stock to Fender locking tuners on this guitar. But, what's weird is that the tuning stability is excellent. I did experience some binding originally on the High-E and B strings, so I (ever so slightly) widened those slots. But, I haven't noticed any issues since then or with any of the other strings. But again, this is a good thing to check.

 

[Killing Floor]

I'll definitely check these. This guitar did come with 9's from the factory, and I upgraded to 10's. I am using Lizard Spit Slick Nutz in all my nut slots. I also upgraded the tuners from stock to Fender locking tuners on this guitar. But, what's weird is that the tuning stability is excellent. I did experience some binding originally on the High-E and B strings, so I (ever so slightly) widened those slots. But, I haven't noticed any issues since then or with any of the other strings. But again, this is a good thing to check.

I’m not telling you it’s the nut. Just that’s the first thing I’d check. It could also be the saddle but less likely. Good luck.

 

[AAT65]

Are you just checking the intonation at the 12th fret? Once it’s set there, how close to in tune (by your strobe tuner) are notes at say the 2nd, 5th, 14th and 17th frets?

 

[gimmeatele]

Start position is similar to mine and with your added line it looks close to the Gibson lightning tail piece

 

[blue metalflake]

Can’t say I ever paid much attention to this - I was happy providing everything worked OK.
This is mine, which is quite similar to the first pic

 

[philosofriend]

I wouldn't worry about the unusual saddle setup. It sounds like you are pretty sensitive about adjusting the action on each string. If you have got the strings so they feel equally easy to fret under your fingers, good, that is what you want.
When the action is low, I like to raise each saddle until it is just high enough to produce a meaty, real-guitar tone that is not choked off by being too low.
Once the feel and tone are equalized across the strings, who cares if the intonation adjustment looks funny?

 

[redhouse_ca]

I wouldn't worry about the unusual saddle setup. It sounds like you are pretty sensitive about adjusting the action on each string. If you have got the strings so they feel equally easy to fret under your fingers, good, that is what you want.
When the action is low, I like to raise each saddle until it is just high enough to produce a meaty, real-guitar tone that is not choked off by being too low.
Once the feel and tone are equalized across the strings, who cares if the intonation adjustment looks funny?

I've found that gauge of string (especially g sting vs the B or D) can have a pretty big impact on how the bridge saddle ends up looking after the intonation is set. I took a look at a couple of mine and they all look a bit different. I use different strings for different guitars and I'm guessing that and just uniqueness in the guitar/nut all contribute to it. It was infested to see how they all look, tho. I never really thought about it so long as it plays well. Is there a beat practice for this kind of thing? Should they all look roughly the same? In all cases on my guitars the low e, a, and g are the longest strings but in one case (a Japanese tele) its a very small about, the saddles are pretty flat.

 

[NoTeleBob]

I know you changed the strings on it, but perhaps it's just a funky set you got? Maybe try another fresh set before you go nuts trying to find what's wrong?

I think physics tells us that they all should resemble the lightning bolt, but there are a lot of variables that might tweak that a bit.

 

[JustABluesGuy]

The last time I had a guitar with weird intonation the problem turned out to be the neck pocket. It wasn’t as snug as it should be, and was actually cocked toward the low e string.

I had pretty much given up on ever getting it intonated when I noticed the neck was just slightly “off.” Loosening, and then straightening the neck fixed the issue.

 

[Freeman Keller]

If you know the characteristics of your strings (core diameter and unit weight which you can get from D'Addario's site) you can calculate the amount of compensation needed depending on your scale and action.

Liutaio Mottola Lutherie Information Website

Information for builders of stringed musical instruments.

www.liutaiomottola.com

Mottola's little wizard is remarkably accurate and I use it with almost every guitar I build.