Saddle-shift solutions?

[jack.plugg]

Having had a couple of Telecasters with 6-saddle (but traditional-style) bridges, I invariably seem to have a problem with "Saddle Shift"!!
I always end up putting some sort of "plug" against the high E saddle, to stop the whole set of saddles from drifting towards the lower edge of the bridge, and out of alignment with the pickup's pole-pieces.
In the past, I have used a small piece of rubber washer, but I don't doubt that this "plug" absorbs some vibrations, probably to the detriment of the strings' resonance.
I can't believe that this is what Fender's designers intend me to do, but presumably, I'm not the only one who has this problem.
Now I know that I can put a 3-way bridge on instead, and I have done that before, but I'd like to keep a 6-way on one guitar in particular, and I am looking for a better solution.
What do you do?

 

[Nick Fanis]

You can use a small metal shim ,I've seen people using tiny diameter washers.
Or you can use this:


image removed

it will sound better too

 

[jonny_frethead]

If your worried about the rubber absorbing the vibes you can make a shim out of layers of string paper and superglue and sand it down to fit. This makes for a super hard shim that will not really effect the sound too much (anything will effect it a little bit).

 

[tlpruitt]

Here's another option...

Put nuts on the intonation screws for each saddle between the saddle and the back of the bridge. Set the intonation and then tighten the nuts up against the inside back of the bridge while holding a screwdriver in each intonation screw to keep the screw from turning.

This does several things:

-It eliminates the ability for the saddle to move from side to side.
-It locks the intonation screw in place so it won't drift from where you set it.
-It adds pressure between the saddle height screws and the bridge plate which should help transfer vibrations more easily, somewhat like a 3 saddle bridge does with the pressure of 2 strings pushing down on each saddle.

I noticed that Nils Lofgren had this on the saddles of his strats when I guitar teched for him for a few shows in Baltimore.

Tim Pruitt

 

[dawin12]

Put nuts on the intonation screws for each saddle between the saddle and the back of the bridge.

That's a pretty neat trick. Does it work well regardless of how high or low you have your saddles adjusted?

 

[tlpruitt]

It should work

I imagine it would work regardless of the saddle height. If the saddle height makes the intonation screw angle slightly upward (away from the face of the guitar) then the nut obviously won't tighten flat against the back of the bridge, but thats okay. You should be able to get it tight enough to stabilize things and make the saddles more snug. In fact, it is the intonation screws being at a slight upward angle that allows the nuts to increase the downward pressure from the saddles to the bridge plate. Tightening the nuts creates more pressure and affects the tone accordingly.

I think the problem with those Fender and Fender style "vintage" six saddle bridges is the pressure of one string and the spring on the intonation screw is not enough to keep the saddles from moving around. You could replace the spring on the intonation screws with a stonger or longer one, that may help a little. I think the stock spring on that six saddle bridge is too light and too short.

Tim Pruitt

 

[S0C7]

Wow!

What an awesome idea. Thanks tlpruitt!

 

[skepticult]

Sometimes the really obvious ideas aren't so obvious.

Thanks!

 

[jack.plugg]

Thanks for the tips ...

... on the Saddle-Shift problem.
Not wanting to change the type of bridge, nor mess around any more with shims and spacers, I have opted for TL's "locking nut" solution.
I went out this morning and bought myself twenty-five of the little devils. I also bought some Locktite, which I may or may not use, (depending whether or not the nuts stay in place).
I have just fitted six of the nuts to my Telecaster bridge, and although I haven't strung it up yet, I can see already that I now have a more solid set of saddles, with no side-play to speak of.
By the time I have got the strings on, it should be ready to rock, (the guitar that is, not the bridge!!).
It looks like a great solution, and maybe one that Fender could offer, without having to re-design the whole bridge.
My wholehearted thanks!!!

 

[Konga Man]

Are you sure that all of these tricks aren't just treating the symptom instead of the disease? Follow with me here: a string at tension will tend to seek a straight line between the fixed points at each end (i.e. the nut and the hole in the bridge. The saddles will be pulled laterally by the string towards alignment between those two points. It is possible that if you draw a straight line from the string hole in the bridge (not the saddle) to the nut, you will find that it does not pass over the saddle at the same point that the string does when you have the saddle in your preferred position. In other words, either your bridge is mounted crooked or your neck needs a quick reset.

If you have Dan Erlewine's book "How to Make Your Electric Guitar Play Great!", he has an example of the former condition on pages 45-6; he address the latter on pages 81-3.

Of course, since I haven't actually seen the guitar in question, I could be wrong.

 

[tlpruitt]

That is a good point

If the string is not traveling in a straight line coming out of the hole in the bridge to the nut then the string itself would be inposing some movement to one side in an effort to straighten itself out.

However, I don't think that is what JP is experiencing and what I have seen happening on some guitars. In this situation the string is coming out of the bridge hole and traveling in a straight line over the saddle to the nut. Then while playing, especially when using a lot of downstrokes, the force of of the pick pushing against the string makes the saddle shift toward the treble side of the body and taking the string with it. So the string went from being in a stright line over the saddle to now being at an angle (from side to side) over the saddle.

The fix I suggested with the little nuts locks the saddle into position with the string in a straight line from the bridge hole to the nut.

Some people have a problem with the string sliding on the saddle while playing. A solution for that is to use threaded saddles or saddles with a notch in them for the string to rest in.

-Tim Pruitt

 

[jack.plugg]

I'll find out tomorrow night ...

... having bought the little nuts, and a mini spanner to use on them, I fitted them to my bridge, and was impressed that everything seemed locked up nice and tight, (and I didn't use the "Loctite" I also bought, by the way).

However, so far, I have only used the guitar around the house, but I've got a gig tomorrow night, so I'll find out then how the system shapes up under "real" conditions!!

Fitting the nuts of course, was the easy end of the job. Getting the saddles on, and the intonation right however, was another story!

Because the nuts, though tiny, take up a little bit of the screw's length, the springs have to be compressed just that little bit more, before the screws will fit into the saddle. That was OK on the outer saddles, but it was a bit of a bu##er on the inner ones. One of the springs ended up in the hem of the curtains - that took a little while to find, I can tell you!

So, you've got them all on, you string it up, you tune the guitar, and you check the intonation.

Well it took me ages!!

Normally it is just a two-minute operation to do the intonation, but that was before I had to (simultaneously)

i) hold the screw tight
ii) compress the spring
iii) fiddle with the tiny spanner to tighten/loosen the locking nut, bearing in mind that I only have enough room to move the nut one flat at a time!!!

(The other alternative, i.e. tightening the screw whilst the spanner held the nut, was harder, and the screw kept slipping as it got near to tightening).

Anyway, it seems solid as a rock now; let's see how it fares tomorrow! If it moves, after all this effort, I'll be a trifle disappointed!

Oh, regarding the issue of the string seeking the straightest route, I fully understand that scenario, but on this guitar, the neck is a good straight fit to the body, and I have made sure that the bridge is too.

However, I do seem to play with my hand on the bridge quite a lot, to dampen the chords, or to get that sort of "chunky" effect, so maybe I am responsible for a problem of my own making, by gradually putting sufficient pressure on the saddles to cause them to move downhill. As no-one else seems to have reported this as an issue, maybe it's just me!

(Trouble is, after all these years of playing, and holding, the guitar the same way, I don't suppose I'm likely to change now).

 

[tlpruitt]

When setting the intonation and saddle height...

..loosen the nuts a turn or 2. Leave them loose while you are adjusting the saddle height and setting the intonation. When everything is adjusted just right then you can tighten the nuts. The nuts don't need to be tight when you are doing all of that adjusting and screw turning.

Good luck at the gig. I hope the saddles stay put for you.

-Tim Pruitt

 

[jack.plugg]

Thanks Tim ...

... and yes, the system worked fine.

The guitar sounded good and the bridge saddles stayed in place, so full marks to you for passing on the tip!

The only thing now is that those six little nuts are the shiniest things on the guitar!!

I got your point about keeping the nuts loose till finally setting the exact intonation, and that is in fact what I had done. But before all that, I'd needed to get the nuts all the way up the shaft of the screw, so that there was sufficient length to allow the spring to go on, plus the saddle. Then, while the springs tried to hinder me, I had to loosen them all again to allow me to tighten up the screws. And then I had to tighten all the nuts up again to lock the intonation. One flat at a time!

I'm not kidding, it did take a while!

Anyway they're done now, and assuming I don't alter the kind of strings I use, hopefully, I won't have to fiddle around with them again for some time to come.

But I can see now, perhaps, why Fender doesn't want it's set-up technicians fooling around like this, on the final assembly line, while everyone else is waiting to get the guitars out the door!

You may well be right about those springs being a little short, or a bit week, for the job that they have to do, but now, by the time there is a nut on the shaft, the spring has 10-15% less distance to travel, so it is probably able to do a better job.

All in all, a major step forward.

Right, that's one problem out of the way; so, on to the next one!!

 

[strat1968]

When setting the intonation and saddle height...

..loosen the nuts a turn or 2. Leave them loose while you are adjusting the saddle height and setting the intonation. When everything is adjusted just right then you can tighten the nuts. The nuts don't need to be tight when you are doing all of that adjusting and screw turning.

Good luck at the gig. I hope the saddles stay put for you.

-Tim Pruitt

Hi folks, and wow a fifteen year old thread. Well, good to have vintage guitars and an archive of solutions to problems we encounter!

I found this informative thread searching for saddle shift. I'm restoring a Lead II and the first thing I did was "get rid of those silly nuts and put on proper springs." Heck, after doing that ,the high E is almost off the fretboard, and the whole thing is 3 or 4 mm toward the treble side. (See last couple frets in photo).

My question is why have both springs and nuts, as mentioned above? If the nut is secure toward the bridge back side, such that the screws don't turn, and the strings are on such that the saddle can't flip. Why use the springs?

Still odd that it won't sit naturally. Do you think Fender screwed up the body blueprint, and already manufactured all the parts and came up with this solution to get the production run out?

The only reason this crossed my mind is because it wasn't intended as a pro line guitar--Though EC, Rory Gallagher, and Steve Morse used them for certain songs.

 

[SPUDCASTER]

Loosen the neck and adjust it until the strings align with the neck.

From the picture. It looks like the saddles align with the bridgeplate and the pickups.

With only seeing a picture and not hands on. That's where I'd start.

I guess you'll figure it out and make it work.

 

[strat1968]

Loosen the neck and adjust it until the strings align with the neck.

From the picture. It looks like the saddles align with the bridgeplate and the pickups.

With only seeing a picture and not hands on. That's where I'd start.

I guess you'll figure it out and make it work.

I'll certainly try it. I also put a tele neck on it and it does the same thing.

Would I have to shim it on treble side of the neck pocket? Both necks fit tight, so I can't see it going anywhere else without a shim if I can squeeze it in there. Unless I am misunderstanding the technique. Thanks for your help.

Steve

 

[SPUDCASTER]

Just loosen the necks screws enough to move it. You shouldn't need a shim, I've never used one for that adjustment. I suppose you could though.

When the strings align to the neck, tighten the screws down.

It won't have to move very far. The neck will basically pivot at the heel.

Like I said earlier. The picture appears to indicate that the strings are lined up pretty well with the pickups. Considering the present location of the saddles.

 

[LutherBurger]

...Would I have to shim it on treble side of the neck pocket? Both necks fit tight, so I can't see it going anywhere else without a shim if I can squeeze it in there...

I've glued a shim to the back wall of the neck pocket under the treble strings for that purpose, but try this first:

You appear to have a lot of room on the treble side of the neck pocket, but the pickguard may be holding the neck where it is. Move the pickguard out of the way and see if you can align the neck without it. If you can, you may need to shave the edge of the pickguard's neck cutout with a razor blade until it fits the properly-aligned neck.

 

[strat1968]

Just loosen the necks screws enough to move it. You shouldn't need a shim, I've never used one for that adjustment. I suppose you could though.

When the strings align to the neck, tighten the screws down.

It won't have to move very far. The neck will basically pivot at the heel.

Like I said earlier. The picture appears to indicate that the strings are lined up pretty well with the pickups. Considering the present location of the saddles.

This worked thanks Spudcaster! Also, found a video of the same. Ha, it's not a bug its a feature! Player preference.

Alas, I also know this wasn't really the OP's question. It was regarding shifting while playing.

Steve