A Rant on Forum "Experts".

[stephent2]

So,.. got into a bit of back and forth on another forum dedicated to Acoustics on the subject of enclosed tuners and open back tuners. My position doesn't matter here except to say, most folks who've worked on guitars, built guitars, etc. will tell ya "Everything matters to varying degrees".

Now when someone writes about one aspect or another,... back and sides, tuners, hide glue, whatever saying,.. "I can't hear a difference", I believe them. They can't. Like eyesight we're all gifted w/ different acuities.

Some of us have been in this biz for a long time and have gained experience, trained our ears, etc. It might just be that even though Wally (lets say) can't hear a difference between open back tuners and enclosed tuners when changed out on the same guitar, I can. It happens to be something I've done as a repair guy probably not hundreds of times but quite a few over the years beginning back in the '70s when everyone wanted to change out their vintage tuners to enclosed Grovers.

But sitting behind their computers, tablets or smart phones, without actual experience, folks will write, "I can't imagine how there'd be a difference" or "I don't believe,..". Geez. Again, I believe them. They can't imagine. Or one my favorites, "that's confirmation bias". Here's another, "The audience can't hear the difference",.. who cares? They aren't playing my guitar,.. they didn't do the work and experience the before and after.

We could go on,.. but it's just tiring. And just like that,.. the rant is over. Blast away.

 

[Deeve]

Even a change from reversed ball-cap to fedora?

 

[northernguitar]

Psychoacoustics are powerful.

 

[Esquire Jones]

Hear hear.

I spent many hours at the umgf reading and asking questions. There are some seriously knowledgeable folks over there.

I’m talking about people that have spent decades repairing and building acoustic guitars. Real students of the genre.

People with opinions that matter, weighted by their actual hands on experience with hundreds upon hundreds of vintage (and new) instruments. I respect that input.

There are some incredibly knowledgeable people here, as well. Just more tele-centric knowledge. And that’s cool.

 

[Nicko_Lps]

hide glue

Some people claim that they can actually hear the difference is "tone" between nitro and polyurethane, some claim hide glue is the "magic" glue tonewise, these people will also claim they trained their ears to hear the difference and.. There is no difference.

Sometimes what we think we can hear, is our psychology that wants to actually make it sound better.

without actual experience

Im pretty sure ive seen somwhere an article of SRV stating that nitro sustains better. I dont know if it was true or fake but for sure SRV has passed the point of being experienced by a large margin!

 

[bottlenecker]

So,.. got into a bit of back and forth on another forum dedicated to Acoustics on the subject of enclosed tuners and open back tuners. My position doesn't matter here except to say, most folks who've worked on guitars, built guitars, etc. will tell ya "Everything matters to varying degrees".

Now when someone writes about one aspect or another,... back and sides, tuners, hide glue, whatever saying,.. "I can't hear a difference", I believe them. They can't. Like eyesight we're all gifted w/ different acuities.

Some of us have been in this biz for a long time and have gained experience, trained our ears, etc. It might just be that even though Wally (lets say) can't hear a difference between open back tuners and enclosed tuners when changed out on the same guitar, I can. It happens to be something I've done as a repair guy probably not hundreds of times but quite a few over the years beginning back in the '70s when everyone wanted to change out their vintage tuners to enclosed Grovers.

But sitting behind their computers, tablets or smart phones, without actual experience, folks will write, "I can't imagine how there'd be a difference" or "I don't believe,..". Geez. Again, I believe them. They can't imagine. Or one my favorites, "that's confirmation bias". Here's another, "The audience can't hear the difference",.. who cares? They aren't playing my guitar,.. they didn't do the work and experience the before and after.

We could go on,.. but it's just tiring. And just like that,.. the rant is over. Blast away.

You're 100% right. They've convinced themselves they're right, and that they're the skeptics, every time they don't believe anyone else can really hear anything. I suspect a lot of them can't hear differences because they can't play well enough to make the difference, and they haven't done enough real life listening.
If you sum up everything that people on this site believe doesn't make a difference, all guitars sound exactly alike.

 

[northernguitar]

Some people claim that they can actually hear the difference is "tone" between nitro and polyurethane, some claim hide glue is the "magic" glue tonewise, these people will also claim they trained their ears to hear the difference and.. There is no difference.

Sometimes what we think we can hear, is our psychology that wants to actually make it sound better.

Im pretty sure ive seen somwhere an article of SRV stating that nitro sustains better. I dont know if it was true or fake but for sure SRV has passed the point of being experienced by a large margin!

Eric Johnson can hear the effect solder makes.

 

[Timbresmith1]

So,.. got into a bit of back and forth on another forum dedicated to Acoustics on the subject of enclosed tuners and open back tuners. My position doesn't matter here except to say, most folks who've worked on guitars, built guitars, etc. will tell ya "Everything matters to varying degrees".

Now when someone writes about one aspect or another,... back and sides, tuners, hide glue, whatever saying,.. "I can't hear a difference", I believe them. They can't. Like eyesight we're all gifted w/ different acuities.

Some of us have been in this biz for a long time and have gained experience, trained our ears, etc. It might just be that even though Wally (lets say) can't hear a difference between open back tuners and enclosed tuners when changed out on the same guitar, I can. It happens to be something I've done as a repair guy probably not hundreds of times but quite a few over the years beginning back in the '70s when everyone wanted to change out their vintage tuners to enclosed Grovers.

But sitting behind their computers, tablets or smart phones, without actual experience, folks will write, "I can't imagine how there'd be a difference" or "I don't believe,..". Geez. Again, I believe them. They can't imagine. Or one my favorites, "that's confirmation bias". Here's another, "The audience can't hear the difference",.. who cares? They aren't playing my guitar,.. they didn't do the work and experience the before and after.

We could go on,.. but it's just tiring. And just like that,.. the rant is over. Blast away.

Yep. Certain things change other things. Aluminum pickguard vs 1ply vs multilayer…
I don’t make art (music) as a double-blind experiment.

 

[Bluego1]

@Wally what do you have to say for yourself??!?

 

[Nicko_Lps]

Eric Johnson can hear the effect solder makes.

Thanks for the input, you reminded me now that ive seen Eric showing off gear and openly claiming his strat sounds better without the trem-spring cover.
We can get to worse territory though to the Eric johnson battery controversy that is claimed as "fake" but im not sure what is fake or real anymore!!

 

[Freeman Keller]

Stephen, I totally agree with you and I totally agree with everyone else. I won't argue with any of you.

I believe that everything about a guitar has some effect. I might hear it, I might not. Interestingly it might be good or not. I might be able to define it or not. It might matter to me or not.

I do a couple of things in my shop - mostly I build different guitars but once in a while I'll make two or three of the same thing. When I do that I try to change one part of the build - maybe slightly different top bracing or different back and side wood or different top. I try to keep everything else the same. I play the guitars side by side. Sometimes I hear a difference, sometimes not.

The second thing is that I have a neat piece of software for my PC that lets me do a spectrum analysis of audio sounds - basically I can play a note and do both a time domain and frequency domain analysis of it. I might do something like record each of the open strings before making a new nut (or changing the tuners), then after making the change, do it again. I try to keep everything the same - same strings, pick, room acoustics, yadda yadda. I can compare both the audio clip (my ears) and the spectrum to see if I can see/hear any differences. Does one have a different frequency makeup from the other? Does it correlate to what I think I hear?

My opinion is that everything about a guitar makes a contribution. You know what they say about opinions.

 

[radtz]

I've learned to lighten up on this stuff. I know I can't tell the difference nor can the crowd, and I don't care, but if it important to someone else, so be it. I can't grasp the idea of a $40 guitar pick. However, if it makes a difference to you, go for it.

I also realize that maybe if a was a virtuoso and made my living off of playing and recording, some of this would matter to me.

You do you. It ain't my business.

 

[Peegoo]

Some folks like okra. Me--I think it's a nasty food and akin to a pepper that never grew past the slimy larval stage. But I don't argue with folks that like it. Many do. I know what I like and that works for me.

Horses for courses, as they say.

 

[pippoman]

So,.. got into a bit of back and forth on another forum dedicated to Acoustics on the subject of enclosed tuners and open back tuners. My position doesn't matter here except to say, most folks who've worked on guitars, built guitars, etc. will tell ya "Everything matters to varying degrees".

Now when someone writes about one aspect or another,... back and sides, tuners, hide glue, whatever saying,.. "I can't hear a difference", I believe them. They can't. Like eyesight we're all gifted w/ different acuities.

Some of us have been in this biz for a long time and have gained experience, trained our ears, etc. It might just be that even though Wally (lets say) can't hear a difference between open back tuners and enclosed tuners when changed out on the same guitar, I can. It happens to be something I've done as a repair guy probably not hundreds of times but quite a few over the years beginning back in the '70s when everyone wanted to change out their vintage tuners to enclosed Grovers.

But sitting behind their computers, tablets or smart phones, without actual experience, folks will write, "I can't imagine how there'd be a difference" or "I don't believe,..". Geez. Again, I believe them. They can't imagine. Or one my favorites, "that's confirmation bias". Here's another, "The audience can't hear the difference",.. who cares? They aren't playing my guitar,.. they didn't do the work and experience the before and after.

We could go on,.. but it's just tiring. And just like that,.. the rant is over. Blast away.

Well I’m just sitting here getting angrier by the second and can’t explain why. . . Oh yeah, the forum experts. Most of the stuff on here concerns solid body guitars, which is what I play 95% of the time. Whenever I come across a thread that the so-called experts start inundating with baseless, meaningless comments to make themselves look like professors, I’ve learned not to get sucked in.

So wow! You can hear the difference between closed back and open backed tuners on an acoustic? I thought only Eric Johnson had ears that sensitive! That’s incredibly impressive.

 

[Blue Bill]

When people on the internet agree with me, it makes my Telecaster sound better. Hey, I can hear it!

 

[Digital Larry]

I'm afraid to enter such discussions as I can barely tell the difference between folk music and death metal, y'know, so long as it's delivered "with feeling".

 

[Si G X]

let me guess..... open backed tuners have a more open airy sound?

 

[0SubSeanik0]

When I read something along the lines of "The audience can't hear the difference" I usually interpret that to mean "don't consume yourself with that issue." I don't see it so much as a technical response as way to let someone know they are getting stuck in the weeds. A lot of us will easily get caught up in the idea of something we recently learned about and start to obsess without realizing it.

I usually consider those valid points to make (if delivered with that intention rather than from someone's high horse), although I can also see how it can really tick off someone who has a much deeper understanding in that area, particularly someone with real technical credibility... and that's usually just what it comes down to: what qualifies as "experience" in these forums is often all over the map.

 

[getbent]

my memory of the 70's was that everyone was trying to 'solve' as though there was a cure and a final destination. So, the bad ass bridge or the sustain gadgets, the upgrade to tuners... all that stuff was toward a stable, stay tuned instrument that would sustain like crazy and be 'pure'

it is akin to Leo Fender wanting BIG and CLEAN when a lot of people weren't looking for that 'final solution'.

The cool thing is there were technical barriers... so it was like pulling hard uphill to get to that pinnacle.

Once it was kind of achieved, people realized there was nothing really there (the roland jazz chorus amps) it was awesome but not a final solution, not because it didn't achieve its goals, but that its goals weren't the actual solution.

There are really no rules, but we desire rubrics and rules and laws and the idea of order and 'job done'...

So, that powers the wheel that turns.

 

[Deebers]

This thread is confirmation bias