Zen Drive vs. Zen Drive 2, any experience

[Telemach_1]

Hi, has anybody had the chance to shoot'm out? I wonder if the more expensive tube loaded Zen Drive is so much better to justify the expense. How do the< compare?

 

[tjk3052]

The tube in the Zen 2 is wired as a diode in the feedback loop of the gain stage. Diodes are what limit the amplification of the guitar signal by clipping the peaks, causing distortion. That is not how a tube amplifier creates distortion.

In other words, if the tube in a Zen 2 was replaced by a 5 cent diode, it would sound very very similar, but then Hermida wouldn't be able to advertise it as something different than every other dirt pedal. So no, probably doesn't justify the expense, but hey, it only matters what your ears tell you.

 

[imsilly]

I've been looking more into Zendrives lately and from what I understand the tube is essentially there to create more sag and make the pedal's dynamics similar to that of an old tube rectified amp. Also they say that changing the tube type can alter this effect so I guess that is also a bonus. I dunno if it's worth the extra cash, but it does have a slightly different character.

Seeing how all my amps already have enough sag I'm probably gonna grab a Zendrive when one appears for a reasonable price second hand. If you have an amp with a solid state rectifier and you want it to get a more oldskool sound a Zendrive 2 would probably be great for that.

So it probably boils down to the rest of your rig and how you want to sound.

 

[11 Gauge]

from what I understand the tube is essentially there to create more sag and make the pedal's dynamics similar to that of an old tube rectified amp

A clipping diode of any type is incapable of such an effect. All that a diode truly is (for this purpose), is basically a "switch" that allows current to flow in one direction. It occurs at a certain voltage where it begins to conduct. These different conduction points are very much responsible for how much of the signal is effected - conduction at an earlier point will create more compression, limiting, and a more intense overall alteration (or distortion) of the original waveform. But it is relatively static as opposed to a sagging amp power supply. The voltage amplitude of the signal either exceeds the diode's conduction point, or it doesn't.

If anything, the ZD1 has a composite grouping of series diodes that probably creates a more pleasing effect, even if it isn't akin to tubes.

they say that changing the tube type can alter this effect

If the conduction point is different, you will get a different effect, but nothing at all similar to a tube rectifier. In order to do that, you would have to dynamically alter the supply voltage to the circuit, and the tube/clipping diodes do not occur in that part of the ZD circuit. Even if you did alter the amount of supply voltage, the core amplification topology of either ZD1 or ZD2 is an op amp - same thing as in a Tubescreamer. It will stay fairly linear unless there is a drastic change in the supply voltage.

A sag type effect in a solid state pedal that operates at 9VDC is really only done in appreciable amounts by overemphasizing even order harmonics and supressing odd order harmonics. You really need something other than an op amp to do that to a great degree. And the effect isn't typically as pleasing as one might think - some odd order harmonics are needed to keep a crisp "edge" to the effect - a staple of most OD pedals. Predominantly even order will make things very "mushy and loose." The latter is more akin to many fuzz pedals, but they have the "benefit" of clipping the waveform much harder (square wave) in many cases, providing that ripping crackly treble.

 

[Telemach_1]

Hmm, that's interesting reading. I'm not too much into the scientific thing but I think I'm getting what you're basically saying. So the mini tubes are more of a marketing thing, right?
I saw a great version 1 vs. version 2 comparo about two days ago, but can't find it no more. From what I heard in this Demo, the Zen Drive 2 sounded warmer, less edgy. The difference was very subtle and the demo off course doesn't give you an impression how the dynamics feel w. your own pick.
I'm not sure if the non tubed zen drive 1 even sounds better to me.

 

[11 Gauge]

I'm not too much into the scientific thing but I think I'm getting what you're basically saying.

I tried to make my description into something as least tech-ish as possible. Apologies if I came up short!

So the mini tubes are more of a marketing thing, right?

Actually, there is more to them. However, the ZD2 doesn't use the submini tubes - it uses a plain old 12AX7. But it isn't even being used in a "starved plate" configuration, like in a Tube Driver or Ibanez Tube King, for instance. But IMO, almost all of the designs that use standard traditional preamp tubes running at less than ~120VDC or so are kind of being used as marketing fodder, more than anything. It doesn't mean that they don't sound good, just what they do is not the equivalent of a preamp tube in an amp.

That said, the Nu-Valve does use submini tubes, called nuvistors. It runs a pair of them. Submini tubes have very little in common with the types found in amplifiers - they were designed for primarily military purposes, where low power sources are practical. The spinoff is that some of the effects that you'll get with the big boys at high voltage can be emulated with these dinky guys. But I wouldn't call it a 1:1 thing...

...And if you do a little research on the Nu-Valve, you'll probably find that it's a bit more aggressive and crunchy sounding than the ZD1 or ZD2 (which is why IMO it's touted as having a "British" personality).

I personally think that the submini tube stuff is probably the most practical way to go for the average pedal user, if you like the voicing and such. Traditional tubes require ridiculous voltages to try and give you the 1:1 of an overdriven tube preamp, and carry high price tags, like with the Jester or Hot Box. There's a whole slew of starved plate stuff (the Mesa pedals, Radial pedals, the Butler stuff, etc. etc.) that can actually be more raspy and crunchy than solid state designs (and some use traditional clipping diodes as well!). And their design dictates that they get much of an amplification assist and tone shaping from solid state op amps, anyways.

It's hard to read between the lines with tube pedals, IMO.

 

[SouthpawGuy]

I have both pedals and to my ears the ZD2 has a lot more edge and grit in the tone, not the actual amount of gain available but the character is different to the ZD1, which I find to be smoother. Another thing to note is the ZD2 is mains power only, the ZD1 will run on a 9v battery. The ZD2 is great but if I had to choose only one it would be the ZD1.

 

[fndtele24]

Hey 11 Guage, what do you think about the valve job by fuchs? It's another tube overdrive. Just wondering if have experienced that one. Or has anyone else tried it?

 

[11 Gauge]

Hey 11 Guage, what do you think about the valve job by fuchs? It's another tube overdrive.

Well, the Fuchs Plush Drive is basically a ZD1 copy, so the Valve Job (I don't recall peeking at one recently) could most likely be a ZD2 copy. It certainly would make the most sense for Fuchs, and afford the least amount of effort on their part.

 

[Telemach_1]

....The ZD2 is great but if I had to choose only one it would be the ZD1.

Why?

 

[11 Gauge]

The ZD2 is great but if I had to choose only one it would be the ZD1.

Why?

IMO, the ZD1 was the template for a good overdrive with a very smooth tone. So good that Fuchs, Jetter, and who knows how many others have copied it. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, or so the saying goes.

We've been talking clipping diodes. Hermida came up with a somewhat odd combination that seems to really work well, for this specific tone and character. Also, most of these op amp chip type of OD pedals aren't really super picky about the one that is used, but in the ZD configuration, it seems important. Hermida sands the information off of the chip, but someone did a chip swap with a ZD1 circuit (to try and hear if he could match it to a 1:1 state with the unknown one) and concluded that the chip is probably a TLC2262CP or NE5532 (it was early on surmised that it was a AD712 or OPA2604, but this guy's swap test did not give 1:1 results with those specific chips).

The "dual triode as a diode" doesn't seem to offer the same smooth characteristics as the solid state passive types.

Also venturing a guess that SouthpawGuy probably prefers the ZD1's extra portability, since it doesn't require a dedicated plug into a wall outlet. I can identify with that aggravation, even if it's a minor one.

 

[Telemach_1]

Hey O.11, I just went back to one of my first OP threads from a year ago. I realized that you already gave me interesting info on a very similar topic.
I still haven't decided on what pedal to go with mainly because paying other bills is priority. Anyway I went back to that thread and read it thoroughly.
There are so many interesting pedals around that it's getting pretty confusing for me, especially as I virtually have no experience with them boxes.
On last night's jam we played a lot of Santana stuff. I had the chance to use a home made pedal which was inspiring. I don't even know if it is a booster or an OD. What I didn't like was that it sounded great on the higher unwound notes but became unprecise and flabby on the wound strings. Definition was not optimal.
I went back, reread the old thread and watched a few clips too. I'm a bit undecided weather or not a booster or an overdrive is my ticket.

The Zen Drive sounds sweet, especially w. a traditionally harsh Tele that I play.
See this thread
The Zen Drive sounds so sweet that I probably would tolerate its' coloration of my orig. tone.
On the other hand the xotic ac plus booster looks interesting too. Also, I don't have a clue what the difference between the ac and rc is.

Since you basically play the same amp. it's interesting to hear from your experience.
What do you think IYO is suitable to my target?

 

[11 Gauge]

What I didn't like was that it sounded great on the higher unwound notes but became unprecise and flabby on the wound strings. Definition was not optimal.

I know what you mean - I can't stand the flab and flub, unless it's done on purpose!

I went back, reread the old thread and watched a few clips too. I'm a bit undecided weather or not a booster or an overdrive is my ticket.

That's really a personal call. IMO, boosters (even clean ones) can be tricky to dial in, since most of the (true) ones do not give you comprehensive control over the EQ.

The Zen Drive sounds sweet, especially w. a traditionally harsh Tele that I play. The Zen Drive sounds so sweet that I probably would tolerate its' coloration of my orig. tone.

I've personally decided that some coloration is almost a necessity with a BF/SF Fender amp, especially with bright single coils (that you don't really like to overly muddy up with your guitar's tone control). But again, it's so subjective. Lotsa folks think that they have an OD which gives a flat response, but just adds fatness. In essence, they have an OD that is coloring things, even if it is in (perceived) subtle ways.

On the other hand the xotic ac plus booster looks interesting too. Also, I don't have a clue what the difference between the ac and rc is.

The AC Booster is very much a hotrodded Tube Screamer. The notable differences are that the TS tone control is replaced with a "Baxandall" treble and bass tone circuit. Also, the clipping diodes are asymmetrical, (exactly) like a Boss SD-1. There are other differences, but those are the primary ones.

The RC Booster actually uses the same circuitboard as the AC Booster, but 3 cap values are changed (one is removed), two resistor values are changed (one gets a piece of wire in it's place), a few clipping diodes are changed, and the gain pot is changed.

...Those handful of changes significantly reduce the gain, and make the EQ a bit flatter. The RC Booster seems very much like a "real" booster until the gain is set high enough to make it distort like the TS that it's based off of.

Since you basically play the same amp. it's interesting to hear from your experience.

The Xotic pedals are cool, but the build quality (IMO) has slipped a bit recently, and I don't like that they goop their boards, especially since one could potentially turn an AC into an RC (or vice versa) without having to flip one pedal for the other, with very little effort. I also don't like goop just for maintenance reasons alone.

Lots of people like the ZD1's coloration. I personally don't find it to be optimal into a BF/SF Fender, but that's my subjective take. It's a bit too dark for my tastes. You may conclude differently.

I've obtained my own solution for just about the entire line of BF/SF Fender amps. I can't really discuss it here. But if you are open to the idea of some coloration, you might want to contact me personally.

 

[SouthpawGuy]

Why?

As 11 Gauge says it's smoother, and too my ears less raspy at low gain settings. Coincidentally one of my favourite pedal combos at the moment is a ZD1 and an RC Booster, they compliment each other very well indeed.

 

[Telemach_1]

.....The RC Booster seems very much like a "real" booster until the gain is set high enough to make it distort like the TS that it's based off of.

So the RC model is more subtle and w. less coloration on the orig tone IYO?

.....Lots of people like the ZD1's coloration. I personally don't find it to be optimal into a BF/SF Fender, but that's my subjective take. It's a bit too dark for my tastes. You may conclude differently.

I always thought that Robben Ford sound was incredible, but at the same time I thought is was too asslikn' sweet w/o any rebel edge at all. Too Boutiqueish Yuppie like.
But now after my latest Tele acquisition the ice pick hits me so hard that I yearn for s.th. that cuts off the shrill and gives it a little more sustain.
So, maybe the ZD-1 would be O.K. if I dial it in moderately. And yes, the more I listen to YT comparos the more I figure that the ZD and the Xotic stuff sound best to my ears.

 

[Telemach_1]

As 11 Gauge says it's smoother, and too my ears less raspy at low gain settings. Coincidentally one of my favourite pedal combos at the moment is a ZD1 and an RC Booster, they compliment each other very well indeed.

Do you use them together at the same time?

 

[SouthpawGuy]

Do you use them together at the same time?

Yes. I usually have the RC before the Zendrive, with the gain set to a 8 or 9 o'clock at most. The gain on the ZD is set to maybe 9 or 10 o'clock. I find the ZD works very well with almost every other boost or od pedal, unlike some other od pedals that are very "particular" about which pedals they like.

On another note have you considered a Wampler Super Ecstasy ? I bought a lot of od / boosts/ distortion pedals in the last 18 months, haven't felt the need to look for another one since I got that one, it's easily in the same league as the ZD, very responsive and sounds great.

 

[Telemach_1]

...........On another note have you considered a Wampler Super Ecstasy ? I bought a lot of od / boosts/ distortion pedals in the last 18 months, haven't felt the need to look for another one since I got that one, it's easily in the same league as the ZD, very responsive and sounds great.

Hey that's funny. I was listening to this just a moment ago.

I was impressed that Brent Mason was in favor of the hot wire and I liked the Mason demo thats up since a while now. I once bought a HRD mod. instructional that was on a html basis and which could be downloaded after paying. Bad experience!! It took weeks until I got a response and a download link. Some female (forgot her name) was shooting me countless e-mails but no link, no nothing. Then finally I received the html package that in the end figured out to be totally chaotic and not properly working. Some home brewn html bloat.,...Man ...
So I remain w. a bad taste in my mouth. I assume delivery of his boxes will take years.

 

[Telemach_1]

Here's an other interesting clip that compares a Zen Drive w. an Ethos overdrive.

 

[captain108]

I have both, prefer the ZD1. They are both great, but the 1 is smoother which i like, the ZD2 is a bit raunchier.