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Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by MatsEriksson, Oct 1, 2020.
Upon further review, I still stand by my statement.
Know thy idiosyncrasies, and tune and intonate it after that. How come some people and the same guitars are in tune anyway then?
I think too many people relies on a) floyd rose, locking nuts, and gear and gadgets b) whatever something else tells them, i e the tuner machine.
For example, I can tune someone else guitars up, but never ever INTONATE them for you/them. They have to do this themselves, because I don't press as hard or soft as they do. Or slide the strings (bend) them even the slighest within chords. When I look at peoples fretting, and they ask me to intonate it, I always keep the "bending" in mind, and try to buck that. Whatever people gets from intonating at 12th fret at 0 +- difference is beyond me. One should ever intonate A TAD flat. On every string. When I play my 010-046 set, set up at an action suitable for me only, it's like this, on say, a stock normal strat or tele:
High E = -1 cent flat at twelfth fret.
B = -2 cents flat at twelfth fret.
G = -3 cents if not -4 cents flat at twelfth. Depends.
D = 0 dead on, nail it.
A= -2 cents flat
Low E = -3 cents flat.
If the guitar has tall jumbo frets, even lower, more flat. Then I tune up so all open strings are dead on 0 cents deviation. No sweetening here. The thing is to keep this while playing. The thing is to be able to hear that something has shifted while/during playing. Now the above intonation I should never say to someone else to follow. It just works only for me, and should. On acoustics it's way different but there one can't adjust anyway. The reason I keep it a tad flat it is much easier to press a little harder to sharp up any pitch.
The reason I keep the G string that much flat, is that whenever pressing a barre chords, say in the e major form, up at the ninth fret, if one looks at the major third on any tuner, it's a tad sharp (if intonated 0 cent, the normal way) and if you take off your barre finger, it comes back to "normal". I e the G string has been pressed down twice which exacerbates the sharpening of the pitch. This phenomenon occurs too, whenever having a capo up there on - say - acoustic guitars and you finger a full barre chord, the capo presses down, the barre finger presses down, and the finger that presses down the major third too. Little wonder all of the guitar sounds sour all of a sudden. As if the major third needs to be put up more sharp, than it is anyway. It's already at the limits in sharp pitch given the equal temperament scale, and definitely don't need to be pushed any further. It's already heard as "too sharp" anyway, in a major third chord.
Try the above, to see if it works for you. You can always get it back to where it once was. I doubt that the above will work for anyone else but me, though. But by and large, you should intonate always on the flatter side of things. Not always stick to the strict 0 cent tolerance on the 12th fret intonation method. For those of you who are really in the know, put a capo on the first fret, and intonate like this on the 13th fret harmonic and 13th fret fretted...
I am a tuning “nut”.
I have not noticed many YT videos with this phenomenon.
I have noticed a few.
Out-of-tune-ness is unforgivable in the modern world.
When I gig or rehearse, I check my tuning often.
My brethren string players, alas, not so much.
I became one after building my first guitar. I made some horrible mistakes making it, and learning to intonate the thing made my mistakes even more apparent. I spent way too long at trying to get the saddles in the right positions, and now pursue intonation (especially at the bridge) aggressively.
Well the thing is maybe it is alright to get condoned where John Doe, or your average shredder wants to have a say, for validation purposes, but as in the first one where someone is trying to SELL a quite an expensive guitar, should've upped the ante a little bit more, or have it peer reviewed before publishing it officially. Like some forums has a moderator that moderates comments first before letting it out, YouTube needs a "tuning" moderator before it lets through any flick...
as fast I am playing live, if some string goes, I hear it, and I stop playing and let the other members take over. If it's a very important spot that I can't fly away from temporarily, I try to "mask" it by playing on other strings instead, up there on the neck, or avoiding or muting that particular string when chording. Immediately, at the drop of a hat. If I strum a chord, and I hear a string that's off in the middle, I stop or mute before I've done the strum through on all 6 strings. If there's even half a beat, or a 4th "pause" I can quick reach to the tuner of the string and crank it if it's too much out of tune. And from then on I am still wary, because if it's gone out of tune that much, something else is wrong with the guitar that needs to be checked. So when the end of the tune comes, I address the issue. It must be something else. Slippage somewhere, kink, binding in the nut, whatever. String on the rocks (loosing the windings at the ball ends, and then snaps).
What sort of tuner is this precise?
Of course, blue notes are supposed to be in between. On the other hand, old acoustic guitars was one set bridge for all, and still is, by the way a lot of them used slide/bottlenecks too, and just played the triad chords. Not too many advanced closed voiced jazz chordings, and intervals. Much open tunings and alternate tunings too. Did Lead Belly ever play in ordinary tuning?
Easy fix. Distortion pedal.
All seriousness aside, I find the audio quality on YT is generally insufficient to judge "tone" "tune" etc. well enough to scrutinize too closely.
I do watch for technique, ideas, and I can certainly discover a player or song.
But, that said-I do hear frequent examples that display what you describe.
Sometimes to extreme.
I dont dwell on it- moving on quickly is a well developed skill.
I bet they're using those awful locking tuners.
There are a few top notch players on YT, but there are certainly a plentiful amount of clowns.
Still tolerable to see the good ones.
1. Peterson Strobe Tuner, either pedal, or software in computer, or your cell phone. 0,1 cents acruacy.
2. Sonic research Turbo Tuner, pedal. Gone overboard with accuracy, as it is 0,02 cents accuracy. Uneccessary for guitars. They're too precise and accurate. When the roulette wheel of red leds rotates, you think it's way off when it's in reality just 0.1 cents which can't be heard.
3. BOSS tuner pedals, all within 0,5 cents accuracy. Exists dime a dozen.
4. T.C Electronic pedals, even those polyphonic ones that tracks all 6 strings simultaneously at once. 0,5 cents accuracy.
5. All the rest of the tuner pedals or clip on tuners out there, Korg, Seiko, everyone of them has at least 1 cent accuracy. Going for anything more accurate than 0,5 cent is definitely overkill for any guitar.
The thing with overkill accuracy on guitar tuners, is that you end up tuning your guitar all of the time, and never ever get it right. One thinks. The "needle" or strobe threws askew and wobbles if you just touch the guitar tuners at your headstock even before you've start tuning, and you can pretend a "neck dive" with your guitar, and the gravity will pull the strings in 0,02 cents wrong way and you'll think it is severely out of tune...rinse and repeat...ad infinitum.
That's known as your ears are getting better. Watch a video of yourself on stage - I really keep my guitars in tune during a gig as best I can, and I don't even tolerate owning guitars that don't hold tune reasonably well. But go ahead - tune up your own guitars, then hold a cowboy chord shape as you normally would and check the tuning of each note. A lot of people will pull notes 10-15 cents sharp which should be very noticeable to anyone who plays, and probably very noticeable to the audience. What helps is a light touch, if you don't have that then heavier strings and lower frets make a difference. I sometimes wonder if the "better tone" of heavy strings is simply that they don't get pulled as far out of tune.
To some extent, out of tune-ness is "what guitars sound like" though.
I used to have a Sonic Research Turbo Tuner on my pedalboard. Drove me nuts. Got rid of it. Relied on whatever built in tuner there was on the multi fx pedals, and where done with that. Live on gigs, one doesn't dabble with intonation, just tuning. At home, one can tinker and intonate for ages, with computer software, and try to nail it.
Yeah, I can't stand my own casette recordings from live bands, from my youth. Cringe and then some. But I was a beginner. When I last checked I knew though, that my playing came out too sour, and I adressed the isssues. I even sat in front of a mirror when practicing to watch, and be vigilant about my fingers not inadvertently bent strings. The main thing is with my old cassettes, I didn't publish them officially and said "Hey, look, hear here!" . That's a difference. I wouldn't have put anything from that out to YouTube these days.
I agree that a lot of people would pull notes 10-15 cents sharp, and it sure helps with a lighter touch. You do have some really good point there, with the "better tone" of heavy strings that they're not that prone to be pulled out of pitch.You may be on to something there. Any chance you're running for office this fall?
Although this would make me wary. Especially on the first few frets. IME the ever so pesky first fret intonation - here we are again at the major third - if you have a heavier string PLUS lower frets, almost fretless wonder, the third string are prone to the following. You press down the first fret on the g-string for a G# tone but hears that it buzzes. It is the right note, but it buzzes. You press as much as on the frets up there, but discovers that this ain't enough because it buzzes because finger pad isn't enough to dampen it. So you press down a bit more. And then: The buzz is gone, but the actual note is way too sharp. Defeats the purposes. Cath 22. Of some sort.
I would rather have high frets because of that. Then you don't have to press so hard, and the fingerpad is enough to dampen the string. Buzz if gone without pitch going too sharp. Remember that pedal steel guitar players are just dampening with their fingers behind the steel bar, and pretty much nothing else, and those strings are of the thicker gauge type.
But then you're on the "no-matter-which-way-you-turn-the-arse-is-at-the-rear" again. If you have too tall frets on acoustics, they become a liability whenever using a capo. Try to clamp one on there and get even balanced tuning and down pressing on all strings. As the capo is the finger that puts equal pressure there it may be a major chore keeping those in tune. If you adjust the spring on the capo to press down harder, it just exacerbates the tuning and so on. Never ending thing.
They may need to take it back to GC for retuning.
Is that why Les Pauls sells so well still? They are known to go out of tune when bending, that they sell these to people that doesn't give a *** or don't hear it?
This. I even listen to some of my own recordings (just youtube clips and so forth) and think, how in the hell did I not notice that was out of tune? I mean I'm not Vince Gill or anything, but still I have been playing for 30 years and do my best to get/keep the guitar in tune.
Yes, of course, but one wonders especially if there's some manufacturing company, or music store, Sweetwater, MF, or Andertons in UK that puts out a sort of "this just in.." as the first with the Music Man guitar did. If they're trying to sell something to us, and it is the original vendor of the instrument they could at least pay a little more attentiong than the run of the mill John Doe out there. Say if I heard, or was interested in that Music Man EB, which seems to be a sort of "private reserve" kind of thing, I would turn to YT review and get an opinion of it, and all I see is this one. So I automatically thinks a beyond 3 grand guitar that someone demonstrates out of tune. You get my drift.