1. Win a Broadcaster or one of 3 Teles! The annual Supporting Member Giveaway is on. To enter Click Here. To see all the prizes and full details Click Here. To view the thread about the giveaway Click Here.

Your internal "voice"

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by geoff_in_nc, Oct 8, 2020.

  1. RoscoeElegante

    RoscoeElegante Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,342
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Location:
    TooFarFromCanada
    Thanks, uke! I gotta credit coffee. Since I don't want to take meds for it (as a daughter has to, for hers), I medicate myself with 4-10 cups a day. (My dad drank about a dozen cups a day.) Luckily, my job allows some duties-juggling. I can pretty much sleep when I really need to, as long as I'm working like nuts when I don't need to sleep. Driving has become harder, though. Sometimes I can go for six hours without a break, and other times I gotta close my eyes every hour or two. It comes on like a heavy curtain. You just puddle. Got an episode starting now, so it's movie-land for me.

    Glad that you survived that ex! I know of what you speak....
     
    ukepicker likes this.
  2. johnny k

    johnny k Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    6,234
    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2011
    Location:
    France
    Once a kid asked me, i am talking to myself in my head, am i crazy?
    I answered i hope you are not because i am doing it too.
     
    Dan R, kingofdogs1950 and JL_LI like this.
  3. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    25,274
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I can identify separate thought streams in words, visual images, music, emotions, and I guess the non emotional sense of where I'm at on the comfort vs anxiety spectrum.

    These streams though are maybe not all in the front of my mind, and I'm not paying attention to all of them all the time.

    I suppose that could mean they are not happening when I'm not paying attention to them, but some are still on the same track if I glance over at the music stream or the emotion stream etc.
    Could be those are states of being as opposed to streams of thought, but I'm not sure if or why those should be considered different.
    Can a stream of thought be paused, and stop moving, but still be there?

    Some years ago I learned that I can have several different emotional states coexisting, but it takes some closer inspection to separate and identify them.
    Yet instead of separating them, I might react to the group of emotions according to the strongest of them.

    That was part of learning to separate emotions: I learned to not react to them if I choose not to react, and in general I find reacting to emotion is just too damn lizard to keep in use.
    Unless making music, where my reactions to my emotions can be released in the form of art that can move an audience.

    But on the job or at the grocery store, reacting to my emotions serves no useful purpose.

    I got some help sorting this stuff out in 12 step work, from a few men who had been similarly guided through such a process already.
    For the normal/ outsider to 12 step recovery person, the idea is to examine all the mechanisms of thinking and action, looking for patterns of thoughts and actions that work poorly for us.
    In 12 step recovery we start by really looking at the principle that we are powerless over certain thought and behavior patterns.
    Initially those may be drinking, drugging, overeating, gambling, seeking physical intimacy with strangers etc etc.

    But later we find that those behaviors identifies as bad by society, are really only symptoms of deeper rooted patterns.

    Things like jealousy (why does he or she have more?), grandiosity (I deserve better, I'm awesome), procrastination (I'm not sure or I'm tired so I'll wait, take a rest, get to it later) insecurity (somebody else is better qualified so I won't step up).
    These are all present in most of us at times, but if they dominate our lives then we might want to change them, remove their power over us.

    Depression and anxiety can and usually do have two entirely separate components.
    Feelings and thoughts.
    If when we get a bad feeling (sickening anxiety), we counter with a bad thought (my plight is hopeless!), we reinforce the feeling with the thought.
    Or we feel sad and depressed and think of sad depressing stuff, we sort of build momentum and a surrounding head space that reinforces and promotes depression.

    Some depression and some anxiety is deeply physical or chemical, and cannot be destroyed by happy thoughts.
    Yet we can rub salt into our own wounds by honoring bad feelings with continuous supportive bad thoughts.

    Or we can figure out what alternate thoughts we are capable of having when we feel depression or anxiety, and work to bring up those more positive thoughts.

    For that matter, if we get a surge of grandiosity, we can remember to think about the fact that there are others in the room who are similarly well qualified, before talking down to coworkers as if we were superior.
    Conversely, if we face a growth opportunity and have a surge of insecurity feelings, we can choose to think about the work that we've done to become qualified, instead of thinking that we are never going to measure up, or whatever negative thoughts we have in response to negative emotions.

    The last two examples illustrate how normal it is to consider our own qualifications, but that normal thoughts can turn into cancers if allowed to dominate our actions.

    Many who get depressed now and then cannot imagine clinical depression.
    Clinical depression cannot be eliminated by thinking happy thoughts.
    But if we could go back to earlier times, we might see a pattern of reinforcing and deepening depression by curling up in a ball when we still had the option of going out into the sunshine and taking a crack at finding some small good in our world.
    I don't mean to unfairly imply that depression can be eliminated by the depressed person, because depression is not a behavior pattern.
    Just separating the feelings from the ensuing thoughts and behaviors, thoughts and behaviors which in time might be the trigger as much as the response.
    Not really as simple as the attempted description implies!
     
  4. Fiesta Red

    Fiesta Red Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    6,265
    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2010
    Location:
    Texas
    What are these things called “thoughts”?
     
    Dan R and geoff_in_nc like this.
  5. Dreadnut

    Dreadnut Friend of Leo's

    Age:
    66
    Posts:
    2,084
    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2019
    Location:
    Grand Rapids, Michigan
    Both.

    Mostly I have songs running through my head, both lyrics and music. Every morning when I wake up I have a song in my head; who knows what it's gonna be? Could be a song I loved, could be a song I hated. They are all stuck in my head. This is a good thing for a guy who can't read music and plays "by ear."

    If you want to read a remarkable book on music and the brain, get "Musicophilia" by Dr. Oliver Sacks.
     
    bromdenlong likes this.
  6. geoff_in_nc

    geoff_in_nc Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    3,024
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Location:
    "Raleigh-wood"
    I do have abstract thoughts, like if someone tosses me a ball, I don't have an internal conversation about how to catch it, it's just see it and react. Music is visual-spatial for me. I get patterns in my mind... The only words might be when I hit a wrong note. But even then the thought about "I hope nobody heard that" is in words. I've been exposed to friends who were in 12 step, and one quote they have, I love: "it's none of my business what I think about myself". Iwish I could reliably apply that.
     
    telemnemonics likes this.
  7. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    25,274
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Hahahahaha yeah! (Funny line from 12 step)

    WRT thinking in the language of music, it’s interesting to think about that thinking.
    I think thoughts in music are both abstract spatial and also math & science.
    Of course spatial is math but includes art like abstract thought.
    Then is the math part separate from the abstract part?
    And how about the emotional connection part?
    Are emotion and math thought totally separate?
    Or do those two parts of the brain merge?
    If not merge then "work in concert"?

    Interesting that working in concert needn’t include music.

    Or better still, processing mathy tech ideas in the imaginative mind is a form of music!

    Music is certainly math in my mind in terms of intervals of pitch and of time.
    Yet emotion has no math component or process I’m aware of.

    Yet again yet: I am fully aware of thought processing going on that I am totally unaware of!
    How can we be aware of mind stuff we are not aware of?
    I guess evidence that we processed stuff, after the fact and if we were not conscious of he processing yet can then identify obvious results.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2020
  8. xtelesquirex

    xtelesquirex Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    599
    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2020
    Location:
    International Man Of Mystery
    There was a study done on this. I read about it a long time ago, but I remember the gist of it.

    Participants would engage in conversation for one minute.

    Those who thought in pictures could 'see' a clock ticking down and were all incredibly accurate at gauging when 1 minute had passed.

    Those who thought in words were more likely to lose track of either the time or the conversation or both.

    There are some people who both 'see' and 'talk' in their thoughts. I'm not sure how that impacted the aforementioned study.

    Interesting look into how people learn things and how people interpret abstract concepts differently.
     
    fendrguitplayr likes this.
  9. backporchmusic

    backporchmusic Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,934
    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2006
    Location:
    USA
    I heard this recently and was surprised, but as I heard it, there were people that had no 'inner voice' or inner monologue--they simply saw things and acted.

    Being the other type, I found this unusual: without an inner monologue, how does one review their actions? How do you decide beforehand, if they might be effective or ineffective, good or bad, or likely to have further repercussions that may not be apparent now? In other words, how do plan 3 moves ahead like a chess game without being capable of reflection independent of action?
     
  10. geoff_in_nc

    geoff_in_nc Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    3,024
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Location:
    "Raleigh-wood"
    You know the seeing VS talking concept is interesting. I do not really see in my mind. Like I can remember a person, but it's almost impossible to see their face. I can describe them, but it's not "up on my screen".
     
  11. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    25,274
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Seems impressively young to come up with functional solutions to internal thinking "problems", or maybe I'm just limited in my head space experience?
    I recall around that age coming to the conclusion that I wanted things in life that were incompatible (get married and settle down vs move to the big city and follow my dreams), but at that time I was not able to move into a solution finding mindset.
    (I moved to the big city and followed my dreams straight to hell!)

    I suspect if I had chosen to go or further explore solution modes, I might have had some amount of better results and/ or fewer negative results.
    OTOH revisionism can't account for roads I would have headed down no matter which turns I took to get to them.

    I'd say a combo of procrastination and zeal to charge forward had me going with my gut more than adding well proven ingredients, like a college education.
    Procrastination can camouflage itself in reckless abandon.
    Or maybe that would be indecision more than procrastination.
    One who keeps charging ahead might never think of themselves as a procrastinator!
    I knew well I struggled with indecision though, and it is still an issue.
    I can identify ADHD as a big influence in my psyche, where a difficulty choosing the perfect solution was a problem I allowed to dominate my long term decisions.
     
    Rocky058 likes this.
  12. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    25,274
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I have many similar issues, including entering a vivid dream state just as I'm falling asleep, and the sentences with random alternate words. I used to fall asleep driving to work, after a restful night sleep and plenty of strong black coffee.
    A $10k two night wired for sound sleep study revealed that I did not have narcolepsy though, and I still often had to pull over for a nap on my morning or evening commute to avoid the occasional trip into the median, or in one case a telephone pole.

    The two best solutions after the docs gave up on me turned out to be going to zero caffeine or sugar use, and later, Kundalini Yoga.

    One day I was following another vehicle to a distant job and couldn't stop to nap, so i called to stop for coffee.
    Back on the caffeine my condition worsened a bit, but really the Yoga soon eradicated it.

    The whole medical idea that REM sleep is supposed to come later, where I seemed to have it just as i dozed off, was inconclusive to the docs who decided I didn't have narcolepsy.
    The speed with which they dropped my problem was dizzying!
    I had to drive to work and was dangerous!
    They said call us if you have any further questions!
    I asked how in hell to I keep a job!
    They didn't appreciate the urgency of my situation, because I did not fit any model of their diagnosis list.
     
    Rocky058 and RoscoeElegante like this.
  13. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    41,538
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    Location:
    San Benito County, California
    I make brief visits back to thinking through things I chose and did, but I don't stay long because, you can't look back too much and spend energy there when it won't matter.

    For me, I have thought about this stuff and, according to studies etc, major loss of a parent early changes your arc significantly. My dad passed when I was 12 and with 7 kids in the house, huge medical bills etc, I was working at 9. We were never rich, but, I learned how close you could be to losing a place to live, things to eat etc and I not only wanted away from the fear of hunger, but also out of the whole gravity of my family existence. All my siblings were hard workers (as was my mom) and we fought our way out of it, but I wanted OUT. That song 'we gotta get out of this place' just rings in my head.

    Anyway, when the gravity of home drew me back, I'd redouble my efforts to take care of what drew me back and then I'd leave again. At 19, self talk was a common thing for me and feeling the recriminations of a thousand scenarios and could have beens and might be and ought to, was crowding my desire to do better.

    In the course of a family crisis, it came to me that if you want to be free, you have to free yourself. If you want to grow, you have to sustain and nurture that. and so on. This can sound selfish, but having had my ex wife ask me if I had a 'martyr complex' because I was so selfless and always concerned with everyone else, I am quite sure I am not selfish.

    The image I think of is the speech you get on the airplane when they talk about the oxygen masks coming down and that you must put yours on before you can help anyone else. I have worked with people who don't do that and it is painful... they have so much unresolved need and though their intentions are to help others, they can't do it effectively... you have to 'pump yourself up' enough to be able to bring that same sunshine to others....
     
  14. Mjark

    Mjark Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    13,686
    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2011
    Location:
    Annapolis, MD
    I think that's intuition which everyone has to some degree.
     
  15. esseff

    esseff Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    65
    Posts:
    1,538
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Location:
    East Midlands, UK
    I knew a German woman who'd spent most of her adult life in the UK and eventually dreamed only in English. Seems a fair indication that our thoughts are 'verbalised' rather than signalled.
     
  16. Matthias

    Matthias Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

    Posts:
    3,316
    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2003
    Location:
    UK
    Depends I have language but I can sort of turn it off and think in pictures.

    Now some people don't think in pictures!
     
  17. RoscoeElegante

    RoscoeElegante Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,342
    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2015
    Location:
    TooFarFromCanada
    I got tested twice.

    The first time, they said, in effect, "Meh, but you got the jimmy leg." Restless Leg Syndrome. Weird, because I don't feel that when I'm awake. I can sit totally still so long crunching a lousy paper that my legs "fall asleep," and I feel what seem very typical urges to stretch, get up and walk around, etc., if I have to sit for an hour or more.

    The second time I got tested, they said, in effect, "Bigtime. Now take a mighty med to stay awake and another to fix your sleep." Having seen how much these meds take out of my oldest daughter, nah. As long as I can function okay, I'll stay on naps and coffee.

    Good luck with your situation, telemnemonics. We need you and your inner voice(s) around!
     
    Matt G, telemnemonics and getbent like this.
  18. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    9,115
    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Location:
    Sinatra's World
    My internal voice hates me. How do I know? It tells me so! ;) :D
     
    P Thought, telemnemonics and getbent like this.
  19. teletimetx

    teletimetx Doctor of Teleocity

    Posts:
    13,314
    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2011
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    OTOH, it may be a fair indication for that one German woman, assuming she disclosed to you that all of her thought processes worked similar to her dream experiences. Otherwise, there's a whole lot of extrapolation in your theory that doesn't seem consistent with other experiences reported in just this thread.

    Another guess would be there's probably a spectrum involved ranging from verbalised to visualized to auditory perception, or mixtures and to other sensory stimulation.

    Does anyone smell anything during a dream?

    In any event, for me, it's a combination, like many - intuition that occurs rather spontaneously, but for me, takes some processing to explain the connections that were made. And then some words just pop into my head. That's the way it seems anyway. Might be a FUBAR mess, but it's all I got.
     
    telemnemonics and P Thought like this.
  20. Hey_you

    Hey_you Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    828
    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2019
    Location:
    Colorado USA
    This how my brain work on this topic.
    I had severe clinical depression. One cannot beat depression. Fight it all one may, it will only become stronger. Once I realized this, I focused on something I had 100% control over. How I reacted to it. Believe it or not, a decision is made either way. Mostly it has become a knee-jerk reaction from years of conditioning. "Arghhh I can't believe I did that". Why do we have knee-jerk reaction when it comes to emotional responses? Why do we exhibit a behavior that is self destructive? Negative emotions cause great harm to one's self. I began to wonder just why I reacted is such a destructive manner. Every time emotions triggered a strong physical response, I questioned why? Why am I acting in a manner like this? Took a long time find out, but I broke the cycle. Depression has no power over me any longer. I am in control of my emotions. They are not in control of me. Except anger. That one has the most power yet.( know the solution, but looking within can be painful) I have not summoned the courage to go there yet. Not everybody has the strength to see themselves who they really are. The sub-conscience sees only facts, and accepts no BS. Who I thought I was, and who I really was, finally became a huge conflict within myself. Escape was the easy answer. Further exacerbating my condition.
    I had to remove the human element in my search for the root of my malady. I viewed myself as an organism. An amoeba.
    Evidences of conditioned behavior in Amoeba Proteus
    "Associative memory is the main type of learning wherein complex organisms endowed with evolved nervous systems respond efficiently to determined environmental stimuli. This fundamental cognitive property has been evidenced in different multicellular species, from cephalopods to Humans, but never in individual cells. Here, following Pavlov’s experiments with dogs that founded the principles of classical conditioning, we have observed the development of an associative memory in Amoeba proteus, which corresponds to the emergence of a new systemic motility pattern. In our cellular version of this conditioning behavior, we have used a controlled direct current electric field as the conditioned stimulus and a specific chemotactic peptide as the non-conditioned stimulus. Our study allowed us to demonstrate that Amoeba proteus are capable of linking two independent past events, and the induced associative memory can be recorded for up to at least four hours."
    I'd like to believe I am more intelligent than a single celled animal! And I cannot think of any other creature that exhibits self-destructive behavior like humans do.
    Negativity has no place in my life.Well, if only to move forward, away from it. I stopped focusing on the neg and focused on the positive. I changed how I viewed my world 180% . On my worst day, if I troubled to think about it, I had far more "positives" than negatives. I chose to see only the "bad". I lead a miserable life, for the most part. And there lie the ugliness of mental illness. We program ourselves to be that way!! Through repeated, negative thoughts. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.
    I now suffer from bouts of laughter and happiness on a daily basis. I had forgotten how to really laugh.
    I let life run me. I now run my life. And let me tell you, after a taste of this heaven, I ain't going back!

    "Mankind, as a race, is very immature."
    That's my world, and you are welcome to it. Take it or leave it.

    ED: Lol, as to the OP. I hear my thoughts. No visuals. But, I have heard sound in 3D
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2020
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.