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Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Big_Bend, Sep 6, 2021.
Okay, I get it. Digression.
You don't even have to change fields to take advantage of that. Mine is hopping right now.
In any case, this is no different than companies raising the prices of their products because they cost more to manufacture or they want a certain amount of profit from it. They don't sell their stuff at a loss as a public service.
I think more people have started to see employment for the business transaction it is and are starting to do the same thing. They're in it to make money, just like their employers. If they can get a better price for their product someplace else, that's where they're going. If employers can't afford labor at the going rate, the industry term for that is "tough cookies."
Apologies if we're not connecting there. I think I see what you intend, but I think those points are not really separable. A lot of the market can demand to work from home - we're watching it happen. It might manifest locally as quitting, whining, anything else. But the market will adjust to some degree, and that's some of what's getting it done. The guys at Dunk's can't pressure via the union or vote at the board meeting, you know?
I think the difference between usual and unusual states is just a matter of scale and alignment, whether really organized or not.
EDIT: I'll add that everyone in my wife's office has had to come into work for the entire pandemic, despite the fact they are in constant close contact with clients that could just as easily have their appointment over the phone or computer. Clients with kids, in fact (she works with WIC). The people making this decision for her office, and who have repeatedly denied all requests otherwise, are all working remotely.
CEOs, HR, and board members. Oh my.
And people are still wondering why there's a "worker shortage"?
There's a shortage of workers who want to get paid next to nothing to work in crappy work environments, in close contact with other humans, during a pandemic, when only the worst sort are adamant on coming in to the store or restaurant during a pandemic.
I agree with this. In my office, before the thing we can't talk about, employees could work from home two days a week. THEN they were allowed to work full-time from home and most people did that. I didn't -- I liked the work/home separation, but eventually my supervisor said the doors were going to be padlocked. I've come around and like working from home, now. They are in the process of gradually opening up the office, sometime in October. (This is a "back" office, btw, and no customers come to it.) Management is aware, because of surveys that people like working from home, so they are looking to be more flexible. You expect this in a workplace -- otherwise employees would leave.
But the story with my friends who are instructors at a college is that the college is trying to open with in-person classes. The students overwhelmingly want in-person instruction. An instructor can, and always have been able to, apply for special consideration. For example, if you are in a wheel chair, you need accessibility. On the other hand, my friends strongly feel that most of the instructors who want to work from home do it out of personal convenience. Nothing in their collective agreement guarantees them the ability to do this as a matter of personal preference. Maybe like my office, the administration will look into it, but the circumstances are different. I work in a back office while they teach students who want in-person instruction. (My friends also mentioned that the numbers were crunched to see if students wanted remote learning. Currently, less than 4% of the students are doing this full time.)
There were about 900,000 of them bad boys, (and girls) out watching football in stadiums all across the country yesterday!
This is just a wild guess on my part, but I'm thinking none of this actually happened to you!
In some states you can (or could have) knock down $1100 a week for staying home.
We've already gone way into the thing we can't talk about. It's been a year and a half or so since the sticky was made. Things change and evolve.
Every college and university has their own issues to deal with. But some universities are dealing better with the pandemic than others. Of course students (and parents!) want to be back in class. But where some schools have not been able to keep virus numbers in check, instructors and some staff are increasingly concerned about being in close contact with students. And rightly so. Unfortunately, this is more common in regions with small and/or rural colleges, with lower faculty numbers, and poorer funding. Do the math on that. Instructors are leaving in droves from these situations, as I noted in an earlier post.
My daughter is doing far better this term than last, since she can actually go to class. Her university (a major state school) has not required vaccinations. But it has done a pretty darn good job getting staff and students up to ok levels. A month in and they've had to do nothing but just increase some mask requirements in certain environments. By this time last year, kids were being quarantined right and left. By October, everything had moved to online only. The school's plan is to do everything it can to make that less likely to occur this year. And so far so good.
I don't know what your friends are dealing with. I'm just saying that they're preference for working remotely may not just be for pleasure. Like everyone else, my employment agreement does not have a "guarantee" of remote work. Even in a pandemic. But like with most things, you get enough people who want something to happen, it does eventually. Lots of my work peers worked from home for months. Suffice to say, it would have looked real bad on the part of the chief administration had it not occurred.
Right on! Some friends invited us on their pontoon boat at the nearby lake Saturday night. It was really nice and calm and empty! Everyone else was at the game. We had a wonderful evening!
I know a guy who is IN CHARGE of a group of people at work, he has a wife and daughter, yet he lives at home! He huffed up and moved out, but that didn't last long, he came back! The thing is, momma and daddy are okay with this, he's okay with it, his wife is okay with it, even his child seems to enjoy the situation. Maybe some folks are just meant to live together! The country seems to be leaning toward smaller houses, maybe they should rethink that. Build big houses, and have everyone all live together. Kind of "come together right now" so to speak.
This is really familiar. We are about 50 consultants, many involved in direct, in-person service delivery, though the team I manage are not.
I generally trust our ownership's ethics, but they are typically conservative small business owners who especially like having the team present, in front of them. "Them" is "me" and the other directors-managers here. So our flexibility to date with WFH - we've attempted an unenforced phased return over the spring and summer, though I think we'll abandon it for the winter in response to numbers from the CDC - has been about the team's safety. The company has emphatically seen it as flexibility, not a permanent shift it is willing to accept.
Thing is, we've had our butts kicked in the labor market already over that policy. Candidates want to know what the permanent policy is, and our own team has asked since 2020 and been frustrated by our answers. We've experienced been some attrition - expensive and frustrating churn - over that.
Competition in our sector and markets is strong, and labor costs are already way up - there's no way we're going to offer a premium over market rate just to offset a relatively unattractive office requirement. Our current posturing is counterproductive and will turn out to be pointless, but all I can do is say so, as respectifully as possible. Mark my words, we will adjust our requirements and policy before this is done. In the event we don't, I may well leave to chase another $50K down the street - no reason to toil away at an org that's unwilling to adjust itself to practical concerns.
So I'm personally in a situation where the labor force's reaction to circumstances has caused me some grief, but I think it's generally "correct" and in at-will, private employment, this is really the only means is has to effect change. I guess somebody could use the suggestion box, or run it up their chain - but that's been done already and the answer's been "sorry, no" already. The market's going to get what it wants anyway. No problem, adapt or die.
This all makes sense too and I haven't meant to beat it to death - whether this is right or in bounds is probably very dependent on perspective, and I have none inside that particular scenario. To me it seems answerable with some version of "sure, but conditions and constraints changed," practically if not contractually. But my point isn't to appear flippant about those concerns.
Maybe apples and oranges because there are no contracts, mine is entirely an at-will situation. But there, I'm plenty aware what we think should work, what we think the engagement should be. I'm not sure it's relevant though - try to play hardball right now and see what happens.
Summed up perfectly.
Haha my wife made near that and about double my take home for serving tourists who balked at and refused to follow regs, starting in May 2020 before there was any real protection for workers.
To be fair, many employers have raised pay 33% but in worse conditions including short staff having to work harder.
I'd still call out the general worker population though, if more showed up for the better pay, their jobs would not be as hard as they are for the half staff now.
The other factor is that a huge portion of say blue collar or unskilled workers serve the public, and "the public" is now on an irate rampage where they freely abuse service industry and retail workers to take out their moody pent up shut in anxiety on somebody who can't hold them accountable. Strangers dash into retail businesses, scream and swear about how offended they are, then dash back out.
Or if they MUST patronize a business that offends them, they for example verbally abuse the line cook making their food.
How is this understandable, sensible or sane?
Are maybe the young adults with degrees and debt that move in with Mom & Dad, also suffering from depression and anxiety, like those who are still functional and self sufficient but manifest crazy in slightly different ways?
I know we've had 30yo's moving back home thing for a while too though.
But depression and anxiety is at epidemic proportions in the US AFAIK, even not counting the undiagnosed whose only symptom is giving up on life. FWIW, I have at times been treated for ADHD and right after 9/11 I tried to get an appt with my regular Doc but was told that the patient load exploded after 9/11 and psych professionals were unable to keep up.
One thing that's baffling today is youth's disinterest in $60k- $100k / year trade jobs like plumbing, electrical, HVAC and construction.
Not just a lack of trained young people in those trades but even trade schools are at 1/4 capacity.
A guy I know who has the plumbing contract for all the Marked Basket stores set up at a job fair, paid good money to have his table and recruit, but got one applicant that was a retired police officer.
If an 18yo learns plumbing and takes a year or two of night classes in business, he or she could be making $250k before they were 30.
With zero college debt if they go to a community college.
When did the trend to restructure pension funds that resulted in mass losses of promised retirement packages happen?
Was that right before the stock market crashes that similarly destroyed mass numbers of 401k retirement funds?
Were those events related?
Any chance today's jaded young people know about that stuff?
I mean we know how history is recorded and disseminated, so maybe in school kids are not taught that sort of dismal stuff?
But they might know their parents security fell apart and not see their own paths to the old timey secure future one used to expect when punching the clock in white collar for 40 years.
I don't really know though.
How about TV adverts telling young people that banks are bad so get this groovy banking app and card, or car dealers are bad so get the app and we will tell you which cars are a good deal then sell them to you sight unseen?
For that matter, credit agencies now offer to raise your credit score without you having to actually improve your own credit?
Curious how younger adults see those kind of TV ads.
Having some experience with some of the things advertised on TV, I know for a fact that TV ads are full of lies.
Is that just the new normal?
Every business (including employers) will lie to you so just conform and eat it?
Again, IDK, but do the next wave of adults see this in what society tells them vs what actually happens when they buy in?
I'd hope that a legit business would be honest in hiring and contracts.
But contract law is interesting, and there are always ways to default.
Most of my work as infrastructure manager is IT related but I'm in the group that supervises our refrigeration, electrical, and HVAC vendors. The way that uses networking these days makes it a regular partnership. From them, it's not youth being disinterested. It's skilled and demanding work. Not everyone can do it.
I think more need to think how being average doesn't mean you are 1/2 way smart in this tendency to call youth lazy or disinterested. People with decent amounts of skill, drive and intellect are getting good jobs in several places. All of our newer refrigeration, plumbing and HVAC technicians have a more demanding job than it once was if only because of the nature of alarms and where a lot of the better commerce and jobs are.
This also goes on. When people are digging at "welfare" a lot of jobs in healthcare are more like that than some other areas. My brother also in IT is in a major med school and regional health care enterprise. The wages are public knowledge. Why wouldn't someone who can be a desktop technician or refrigeration person or office manager not want to do same thing where the pay is better? This county has Google and Microsoft offices. A lot of people cannot afford to compete with their wages and compensation.
This is not exactly simple stuff some reasons maybe not so obvious.
Well yeah in industrial and in any HVAC there’s a lot more to learn but are you suggesting kids today aren’t smart enough???
I’m seeing tons of need for domestic plumbers and electricians.
Like you wait a year if you want to remodel your kitchen or bath.
And both of those trades are really easy to learn well enough to earn a living if not to run a company.
True not everyone wants blue collar but everyone wants basic needs that cost money, while something strange is happening.
Is it maybe hard work that’s gone out of style?
Extreme sports are in but folks will pay to have their lawn mowed then pay to be told which heavy object to yank on at the gym.
Maybe getting dirty has gone out of style?
Mud on jeeps suggests not!
So why all these young people not working?
Or in some cases working menial jobs despite basic hand skills and adequate intelligence to run wire or pipe?
The training may not require high level of intellect but it's still a few years of training at a school sometimes with an apprenticeship so unless you live at "home" with your parents it can be a difficult option to make work. It would require a second job that fits around the schedule.
In the US there are vocational high schools kids can choose, which used to be popular but are now at 25% of capacity due to lack of interest.
Kids can get two years of training and be ready to hire by a contractor as a paid apprentice.
Many plumbing and electrical contractors will hire interested prospects with no more than some experience with basic hand tools.
Used to be harder to get hired but the vocational schools have been common forever and right now there are just tons of jobs including paid apprentice type trade jobs.
Bath Iron Works in Maine builds the big Navy ships and has been advertising on the radio and holding job fairs, same thing no experience needed will train on he job.