Young people dropping out - after college

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Big_Bend, Sep 6, 2021.

  1. buster poser

    buster poser Friend of Leo's Platinum Supporter

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    All of that post. I almost said "we know who wins in a race to the bottom" above. I guess it's easier to believe fictions about an entire generation of people than to see the ones staring you in the face about the current schema of "low skill" labor in the US.

    It is also much bigger than what goes on at the shallower end of the wage pool. There have been no end of national pieces detailing how people are retiring early, quitting jobs they hate or careers they are unfulfilled in to go follow their passions, etc. The last year has crystallized the experience of working for a lot of folks, and a lot of us have decided it sucks.

    This ran in my local last weekend.

    https://www.santafenewmexican.com/n...cle_e5080a1e-f6ba-11eb-bedb-7f193744f750.html

    But since the spring, record numbers of people have quit, resigned or stepped away, leading Texas A&M University professor Anthony Klotz to coin the phenomenon as the Great Resignation — one that has the possibility of creating a shift unlike any other at businesses large and small.

    ...

    “In this historically tight labor market, it’s truly a job seeker’s market like nothing we’ve ever seen before,” Sabrina Benavidez, director of Express Employment Professionals in Albuquerque, wrote in an email. “Job seekers know that they can leave their existing position — even in skilled roles — and transition to an entry level, unskilled position, regardless of the industry, for higher pay.
     
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  2. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yup. It's my cynical observation that corporations (large and small) are willing to pay more to CYA, under the guise of training, productivity standards, and legal and HR departments, than they are to pay their employees above a "competitive" wage. Whether in terms of benefits, work place protections, or just plain old dollars, it's all the same. They're more motivated not to be sued, than they are to just treat their workers with respect and dignity. People want to work for a great company. Is that really too much to ask?

    It's almost as if the big CEOs of the world refuse to believe their own "market demand" mantras.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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  3. Telekarster

    Telekarster Friend of Leo's Gold Supporter

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    Good job Dad! Yep... I know a number of people who couldn't afford to go to college, or they went to college and it just wasn't for them, and they ended up starting their own businesses etc. Today they are very successful and a few of em are multi-millionaires with fleets of vehicles, office buildings, 100's of employees, etc. etc. Very proud of what they were able to do for themselves vs. where they came from. One guy I know couldn't afford to have his transmission repaired so he bought a kit, tore his tranny out of his car, and rebuilt it himself. We were teenagers then. He then started doing it on the side for others, cause he didn't make much $ at his full time job etc. Today he owns 3 transmission repair shops, but is now in semi-retirement living in his million dollar lake house, and has a new Lambo Gilardo in the garage! Amazing for me to have watched him "grow" into the person he became. Every once in a while I'll bring it up "Man.... remember that time you were making 6 bucks an hour at an upolstery shop and the tranny went out in your car?" LOL!! Awesome! :cool:
     
  4. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Poster Extraordinaire

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    The loss of teaching staff at universities has been huge. It has had NOTHING to do with people being lazy or entitled or whatever. They just had enough.

    A family member directed a friend to me over the weekend who had big questions about getting into grad school in my field. It was clear to me that although this person is very bright and motivated, she seemed quite naïve about what the grad school experience was, including getting in, what types of programs might be the best fit, and what pathways it will lead to. She is an older student, kids grown. I have a feeling she's been out of the workforce a long time.

    Her biggest concern? She had been emailing faculty at specific programs whose research endeavors lined up with hers. That's a good thing to do, of course. But she hadn't got one reply. In the meantime she's applied to programs and got rejected. One faculty member gave her some feedback that it was because she didn't have any research experience.

    Catch 22, in her mind, no doubt.

    In my field, the top doctoral programs not only produce excellent professional practitioners, but are also big research producers. They have (had) lots of research money coming in, and tend to have lots of big name publications from faculty. I assumed these were they type of programs she had been inquiring. I told her it's not only likely that faculty in these programs are inundated with potential students daily, and can pick and choose their darlings. They also are dealing with what EVERY faculty member is dealing with right now. They are remote from their students. They are being required additional demands due to the pandemic and reduced funding. They are tired. If if weren't for the fact they are at top universities and programs, and therefore have a lot to lose, they might be bailing like tons of other faculty around the nation.

    Our local university and community colleges are in absolute ruins right now. Teachers are just walking away, after years of service in academia. Many are taking it all as a good time to retire. But there are also many who have just had enough. Non-tenured faculty get roughly minimum wage, when you count up how and when they are paid, WRT to the actual demands and effort. That's a lot to put up with after several years of expensive graduate training.

    But that doesn't mean she can't go to grad school. My field has lots of good options underneath the research heavy programs. There are good options outside of traditional university setting, as well (lots of bad ones, too. But there are good ones). She wasn't aware that was a good option for her. Most of our conversation was me explaining how it in fact may be a better option. There's a reason lots of folks don't go into academia, and/or need to be in top research programs. The amount of lecturers walking away shows why. There is a high demand for people in my field, outside of the top research and/or practice institutions. And a lot of it is well paid. My job is a good example.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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  5. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    My wife and I camped this past weekend with friends who teach at a local college (college, not university). Things are nuts. Some teachers are demanding to still teach remotely. My friends' rejoinder to this was, "and what do you say when you bump into your students at the grocery store?"
     
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  6. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Poster Extraordinaire

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    Good points to consider. The vast majority of faculty I know would far prefer to teach face to face. But if the telework explosion of the pandemic has taught us anything, it's that it's nice to not have to be the only one at the office. The folks left at the office get to do all the work every one else who is remote can't. Including custodial.

    I had to do some telework. I really should have been allowed to do more. Point of contention with my supervisor. But that's in the past. As much as I really didn't like sitting at home on a laptop, it certainly beat not having to worry about being exposed to virus. But by far the best part of it all was not having to deal with whatever daily drama and "mission critical" BS was rampant on any particular work day. Didn't miss all that one tiny bit.

    I know from experience that academia has perhaps the worst BS of all that any paid, highly educated professionals have to put up with. I also know as a parent that regardless of how chaotic the current situation is with your kids, making any dramatic changes will only make it worse. Most faculty I know have kids.
     
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  7. Drew617

    Drew617 Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    This is interesting. Not sure I feel a right or wrong but I can relate in a sense: My household is 6, ages .5 - 40. We've all been sick in the past year and recovered, and are otherwise generally healthy. In other words, not high risk.

    I've nonetheless resisted a full return to work and some proposed extra-office functions. We have quarantined ourselves on three separate occasions now. The concern isn't for personal safety, it's for the extremely costly disruption. We lose access to daycare (though it still costs $3K/mo) when that happens, along with the ability to host stepkids under shared custody, if they weren't with us when it started.

    Some do, but we don't have to go to the office, and certainly not to the dinner party or to the axe throwing mandatory fun night. We do have to go to the grocery store. That rejoinder is a straw man, because it's not an either/or calculation. And many of us are navigating risks that are much more complex than "immune/not immune."

    Instructors don't have to go to school either. Either because they don't have to do anything, in the literal sense, or because we all (very correctly) collectively have some influence over what functions and expectations are viable in any employment market. They're certainly not wrong for exercising their will or concern.
     
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  8. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    Instructors have always been able to apply for a special status to work remotely. What my friends were complaining about is a palpable sense of entitlement.
     
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  9. Drew617

    Drew617 Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    Don’t mean to be argumentative at all, but I’d say that if somebody can make that decision, they’re literally entitled to do so - in the non-dirty-word sense of “entitled.” I wasn’t in the conversation, and don’t know those people, of course.

    My own perspective tends to be pragmatic and libertarian about this stuff. I can’t imagine feeling that an instructor owed me or anyone much commitment, and I think it has to be up to the market to arrange mutually beneficial relationships. We’re all participants and will interject some of our own attitude. :)

    A previously unavailable option has been reality in some sectors for 18 months now. The workforce is aware that it’s actually been viable in a lot of cases, and that information’s part of their calculus now. Can’t really ask them to un-know it.

    Conditions changed, some of what was true 2 years ago isn’t now. I don’t see much right or wrong in it, but won’t be the last time that happens for sure.
     
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  10. SixStringSlinger

    SixStringSlinger Friend of Leo's

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    Which just goes to show that it was available, there just wasn't the will to provide employees with this advantageous and (in mot cases) viable solution until there was no other choice. People remember that sort of thing, and not fondly.
     
  11. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    I think the bottom line is that employees have supervisors. If your supervisor tells you to report to work, you do, or you deal with the consequences.
     
  12. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Poster Extraordinaire

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    Yes. My place of work (medical facility) has been touting the ability to do telehealth for decades. But it was not until the pandemic that made them have to actually make it work. Technology changes (particularly in the browser) over the last few years made it as possible as it could be. But medical providers having to work from home is what ultimately drove it to actually happen.

    Believe me. I worked for years at this facility to get working telemental health clinics up and running - both to smaller clinics and patient homes. Every roadblock you can imagine was put in my way. And technology and internet coverage were only part of that issue.

    I kid you not, in that several years ago I told a patient that for telehealth to ever be made to work at this facility, a major world crisis would have to force its hand.

    Like I said, it's not necessarily that everyone just wants to work remotely now that we can. Now that more than a few have tasted the positive changes it has allowed in their personal and professional lives, many are not content with less. CEOs and boards can cry all they want about the 'evils' of remote work. Pandora's Box has been opened.
     
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  13. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Poster Extraordinaire

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    Lots of supervisors working remotely now.

    In any case, if labor relations were that cut and dry, factories in North America would still be enslaving, er.. employing children.
     
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  14. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    I don't follow.

    I called in today and said I want to work from home. My supervisor said no, I need to be in the office. SoOOooo... I sent in a child?
     
  15. SixStringSlinger

    SixStringSlinger Friend of Leo's

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    When this whole mess began, a group of people from my job was sent to work from home, including "leadership"; 4 people who haven't stepped foot in the office more than once (very occasionally twice) a week in the last year and a half. Meanwhile I (whose job is mostly done on a computer - I print a few things but it's mostly superfluous - and requires zero face-to-face interaction) and others have been coming to work as normal aside from the normal odd sick day or PTO without so much as an option to work from home.

    It's a given that work will suck at times - perhaps even often - and that you show up and work through it regardless, but that's not what this is.
     
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  16. Drew617

    Drew617 Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    That’s probably what I’d tell a 16 year old, too. But any of us can choose to accept those consequences, or not, and the labor market (ie. All of us) have something to do with Dunks’ or the college’s consequences too. The idea that I owe a supervisor to do any particular thing is absurd. I’ll do it until it stops making sense to, that’s it. I’m in charge of that.

    This is no more than a free market in a democratic society doing exactly what it’s supposed to.
     
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  17. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    see, you have some hardass southerner in you after all!
     
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  18. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    :lol::lol::lol:

    My secret shame: fried pork rind.
     
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  19. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    You're making a different point, that you can quit. That's not my point. My point is that it is not the usual state of affairs for an employee to dictate whether they work from home or work from their workplace; that they can ignore what their supervisors says without consequence.
     
  20. Whatizitman

    Whatizitman Poster Extraordinaire

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    No. You called your friends entitled for wanting to continue working remotely.

    Your supervisor might have said no. But you didn't get whipped, burned, beaten, or killed for asking, either. And you're not a kid.

    These kids weren't so fortunate. But lucky for us, things have changed a bit. Are you entitled to not be beaten by your trainer? Cuz the same argument could have been made back then. And was. Apparently this foreman thought his teenage apprentice felt too entitled.

    https://www.historymuseum.ca/cmc/exhibitions/hist/labour/labv16e.html

    [​IMG]
    Were you ever beaten during your apprenticeship?

    [​IMG]
    Yes, sir.

    [​IMG]
    How old were you?

    [​IMG]
    I might have been fourteen or fifteen.

    [​IMG]
    Who beat you?

    [​IMG]
    The foreman.

    [​IMG]
    Why did he beat you?

    [​IMG]
    For all sorts of reasons.

    [​IMG]
    You do not remember why?

    [​IMG]
    ... it was oftenest because I would not work after regular hours.

    [​IMG]
    Did he strike you with his hand, his fist or some tool?

    [​IMG]
    With whatever he had in his hand. He balked at nothing.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2021
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