1. Win a Broadcaster or one of 3 Teles! The annual Supporting Member Giveaway is on. To enter Click Here. To see all the prizes and full details Click Here. To view the thread about the giveaway Click Here.

You think scales are going to gte you through? Ha!

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Telenator, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. hepular

    hepular Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    789
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2019
    Location:
    abilene, tx

    Govan puts it succinctly:

    GG: Do you think it’s important to know the Scales and Modes if a guitarist is to develop their own unique voice on the instrument?

    Guthrie: It depends very much on what a particular guitarist is trying to achieve so I’m not sure that there's a single universal answer to that which could apply to all players. Someone like Albert King managed to find a totally authentic voice on the instrument without ever having to memorise any modes of the melodic minor scale whereas, at the other end of the spectrum, Allan Holdsworth clearly absorbed pretty much everything that Western music theory had to offer and still wasn't satisfied so... he ended up inventing more scales and modes of his own! Both are equally valid, in my humble opinion, but in terms of usable advice for other players... if you're not sure whether you need that level of theoretical knowledge or not, it surely can't hurt to acquire it anyway - you can never know too much ;-)
     
    P Thought, SRHmusic, jman72 and 4 others like this.
  2. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    13,040
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    victoria b.c. CANADA
    Yes, that's how I hear it as well. As I said before I hear it like he's referencing the min. pent...that's home base that he begins in and then returns to for his non pent excursions. When he's playing in that pent home base his lines are more funky and melodic as well. It would be interesting to ask Guthrie himself how he's hearing it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
    Jakedog likes this.
  3. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    13,040
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    victoria b.c. CANADA
    Oh, he's definitely the real thing....he's not simply relying on guitar trickery...he thinks and hears like a musician with deep understanding and skills.
     
    hepular and Jakedog like this.
  4. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    13,040
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    victoria b.c. CANADA
    I think Govan can skillfully navigate more harmonically complex music than anything I've heard Buckethead do. I think his knowledge is deeper and his toolbox is bigger.
    It's ridiculous to try and come up with musically appropriate metaphors....lol.
     
  5. KennyWTelejazz

    KennyWTelejazz Tele-Meister

    Posts:
    418
    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2011
    Location:
    The Planet Tele X.
    Transcribing what he played note for note , it's no big deal .
    Its simple man. You put in the work , you reap the results .
    whaaaatt ! you want me to work for it ???????lol YEAH !

    First off there's no real changes to the tune.He is playing over one chord most of the time with a few other chords that happen to show up every once in a while ...
    Throw the audio of that clip in Reaper ...slow him down ...learn from what he is doing

    Before you do that , you may have to do is ask your self a few simple questions ...wink sarcasm alert.....

    Am I guitar player that thrives on expressing myself by learning and playing new things on my guitar ...
    Am I up for the challenge ...is tone really in the fingers and what I practice ?
    or
    Am I a guitar player who gets more satisfaction out of making like I'm the Head CEO of a Guitar Factory where all I do all day is change necks , wire pick ups and start threads asking about what pick guard looks the best on my Tele ...
    It takes both types ...
    ..................there I went and said it . Now hate me if you want ..lol
    Just so you know I can walk my talk I am posting a clip I did last year where I play along the lines in a similar vein of what is being played in the opening post


    Kenny
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
    superjam144 likes this.
  6. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    13,040
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    victoria b.c. CANADA
    Firstly, it doesn't matter (unless it matters to the player him/herself) and the conversation was never about whether it mattered or not. It was an observation that had no value attachment attributed to it. Having said that I don't think it's at all unreasonable to say that there are different skill levels attainable in music. I mean would it be crass to assert that you don't have the 'skill level' that EVH had? These things are measurable technical abilities. This is why some people are presently students and they go to people that have a higher skill level that are called teachers. Why is it suddenly not appropriate or deemed distasteful to discuss that sort of thing when placed within the context of music? Is music somehow exempt from such things? Music is an activity that has a wide spectrum of technical skill levels required to execute different stylistic expressions. I don't see acknowledging that as problematic.
     
  7. hepular

    hepular Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    789
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2019
    Location:
    abilene, tx
    sir, this is a forum for guitar geeks, in which people actually know who Lenny Breau was.

    i'm struggling to find an elegant way to say that EVH's curse was precisely the sort of success you seem to suggest is all that really matters. It woulda been Hendrix's 78th birthday here recently: do you think he woulda spent 40 years recycling 10 minute variations on eruption or trotting out hot for teacher or panama one mo' time?

    i never got excited by that jump around on stage pissing contest thing and didn't follow evh's career past like the 3rd album, but had he _really_ gone off on a change of direction i suspect people woulda been mentioning it.

    one way to measure it: check out an aristocats video, say this:



    note the actual musical interaction as opposed to turf-war aggression (indeed, it's odd how often the later VH performances i've watched whilst trying to like evh) sound like everyone's playing in a different time zone. it's kinda like evh mighta wanted to do different .. . but there's bills and those tours

    and then there's his famous incuriosity about anyone ELSE's music
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2020
    SRHmusic and boneyguy like this.
  8. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    13,040
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    victoria b.c. CANADA
    And in thinking more about it I'm guessing Govan may consider himself more of a rock player than a fusion player....he plays much more like a rock player. And if that's the case then it makes sense that he 'hears out of' min pent a lot and makes excursions from and back to that sound. At least in the context of the OP's video of Govan.
     
  9. maxvintage

    maxvintage Poster Extraordinaire

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    5,197
    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Location:
    Arlington, VA
    I'll admit to being what mystified by this thread. I have never thought "scales would get me through." I have no idea what that phrase means. Get me through what?

    Knowing your scales seems like a good thing, but I sometimes hear players who just seems to play scales against chords and it seems uninteresting to me.

    That being said, I was unable to make it thought more than about 30 seconds of that clip. The tone was extremely irritating, and while he showed a lot of deep musical knowledge. I prefer a solo to "tell a little story" as Lester Young used to say. I guess he was telling a story, but the story was "i have deep musical knowledge." That story got through, but for me at least it wasn't an interesting story.

    I have to say I have less and less patience for guys showing me their chops. I used to get excited about that kind of stuff, but now I just can't get through it. Especially with all the gain. Dayum, let the poor wasps out of the jar!

    This is sort of embarrassing but the other night by accident I heard Willie Nelson's version of "Rainbow Connection," which I think is a dumb song, but his arrangement was really good and his solo was quirky, original, and surprising without showing off. It refered back to the original melody and departed from it: it was in a dialogue with it. It told a story, although he kinda lost it at the end: that made it more interesting
     
    MilwMark and superjam144 like this.
  10. SRHmusic

    SRHmusic Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    662
    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2020
    Location:
    North Carolina, USA
    Here are a couple Aristocrats performances I enjoyed... just set aside some time to watch and listen on a good system. There is a DVD available for the 2nd one, I think. There are a few others out there with good video and audio quality. These guys have been around a few years now, with four studio and three live albums since 2011... interesting that Govan didn't make it onto some people's radar by now. There is a lot of interplay in the band, as @hepular points out. Cheers

    Worth reading his Wiki page, too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guthrie_Govan

    From a Frankfurt Jazz Festival (2014?)


    From 2016, another concert, with DVD available(?)
     
  11. superjam144

    superjam144 Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    32
    Posts:
    1,082
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2020
    Location:
    EMPIRE STATE
    This is exactly what caught me off guard, and a lot of people here... We were showed a clip of Govan playing way BELOW his ability, trying to play some form of classic rock or blues, when he really excels at fusion.

    So I was left, feeling similar to you, like who's this show off.

    I found out what the fuss was about. The guy has skills in the same league as Buckethead. I'm talking in outer space type guitar abilities... These guys know those modes like the back of their hands and compose original songs to essentially SOLO over using them.

    Govan is more jazzy than Bucket, and Bucket is more metal based... I am not so much a fan of jazz or metal, but the way THEY do it, makes you really love their music.
     
  12. hepular

    hepular Tele-Holic

    Posts:
    789
    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2019
    Location:
    abilene, tx
     
    SRHmusic and jman72 like this.
  13. superjam144

    superjam144 Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    32
    Posts:
    1,082
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2020
    Location:
    EMPIRE STATE
    Man I don't think you can even do that with a tele!! :p

    I hear so much Holdsworth in his playing. Very interesting stuff...

    I consider Buckethead to have reached the pinnacle of "shredding". I mean, I don't think anyone can top him as far as tech and skill goes. He has HUNDREDS of recorded albums...

    But Govan is doing the same speed picking that Bucket does, it is really intense.

    Like said above, hundreds of hours of practicing scales... Plus he has those fancy guitars :p
     
    hepular likes this.
  14. donrichfan

    donrichfan Tele-Holic Gold Supporter

    Posts:
    558
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2012
    Location:
    Colorado
    that’s one heck of a upload_2020-11-29_19-51-57.jpeg

    I bet it fought like the devil.
     
    Peegoo likes this.
  15. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    12,154
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    People have different technical skill levels. Yes.

    EVH could execute any idea he had on guitar.

    I’m confused why you think GG has “more” technical skill.

    After a certain point, how would you know?
     
  16. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    13,040
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2007
    Location:
    victoria b.c. CANADA
    As one example EVH would quickly be out of his element playing over jazz changes whereas GG has complete fluency in that realm. That requires specific technical skills beyond just cognitive knowledge of jazz changes. It requires a different kind of technique. If EVH played what was in his head then I would suggest he had a very limited interest in what he wanted to play and there's no problem in that. No judgement. GG on the other hand has a much broader interest in different musical styles and can play what's in his head in those various styles which requires a level of mastery of technique that EVH just didn't have. This is no slight against Eddie by any means. I don't think Eddie would have any problem stating that GG had more technical skill. Honestly, it's a bit of mystery to me that it's not self evident to anyone who listens. This is not a judgement of who's music is better or even who's guitar playing is better. GG is FAR more versatile than Eddie was and that requires a level of technical skill that Eddie just didn't have. If you don't hear it then so be it. Life goes on..... :)
     
    rough eye and hepular like this.
  17. chris m.

    chris m. Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    8,656
    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2003
    Location:
    Santa Barbara, California
    Ok, I guess I like players like David Gilmour, Mark Knopfler, and Hendrix better. Not as technically capable on the instrument, but great songwriters that know how to maximize the value of the notes they play. EVH did that too, at least during his prime.
     
  18. loopfinding

    loopfinding Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,585
    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Location:
    europe endless
    i think some of the ways people look at “scales” is a little bit coming from a rock perspective, like drilling them out one by one.

    you can play most things in western music with just major, melodic minor, harmonic minor, pentatonic, and symmetrical scales. 6 basic scales. That’s all you have to know. not 20-30 patterns, not "quick! play a D phrygian dominant on the whole neck!" i think people make it seem more complicated than it is. i don't think it makes sense to get anti-intellectual about it either - all the tools are right in the scale, you don't have to play them in a scalar way.

    let’s say you have a ii-V-I. the whole thing is in the key of the I. why would i complicate my life trying to think about the chords in individual mode patterns when all i have to know is what key the sequence is in and just know where the arpeggios and starting notes are? if i remember correctly, barry harris even said screw the ii and play on both ii and V like it's the dominant. of course, you can always get as spicy as you want on the dominant as long as you resolve. that's where knowing the other 5 guys is good.

    there are some other things too for me personally. like why would i bother trying to conceptualize something (in the moment) as G lydian dominant or super locrian when i know i can just play stuff from D melodic minor or Ab melodic minor from muscle memory? if i want a mixolydian sound on an E, i'm just going to play things from an A major scale, not think about it like "E mixolydian." i know where the chord tones i need are in those scales.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2020
  19. Telenator

    Telenator Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

    Posts:
    13,934
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Location:
    Vermont
    Wow, so many great comments here. It helps my perspective on all of this as well.

    The pentatonic minor scale exists because it has 5 foundation notes in it that work well with many chords and patterns. My original comment, "but it ain't gonna get you home on this one," is a humorous statement saying that there is more to it.

    You almost can't get away from the having those 5 common notes in a solo because they are the building blocks of guitar solos and the notes just plain fit. I was quite satisfied with that several years ago until I realized that it had become a limiting factor for me and I began studying with a very good teacher who took it further.

    Having the 5 common notes in a solo is almost unavoidable, but to reference Govan's playing as a "pentatonic scale" with frills added, implies that a person is entrenched in that way of thinking. It works. To a degree.

    Some of the comments here have been very eye opening for me and I intend to look deeper into this. Admittedly, I am no great player, but I like to learn and expand my repertoire. Growth feels good.
     
    Blue Bill, telemnemonics and MilwMark like this.
  20. Telenator

    Telenator Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

    Posts:
    13,934
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Location:
    Vermont
    Can't resist posting this cut.

    Marc Bonilla did a seminar where he played along with a song he recorded in the early 90's. Same thing. The way he makes expressions on the guitar is just phenomenal.

    Not everyone is going to like this, but the guys raw talent is undeniable.

    The album this is from, EE Ticket, blew me away when I heard it in the early 90's.

     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.