1. Win a Broadcaster or one of 3 Teles! The annual Supporting Member Giveaway is on. To enter Click Here. To see all the prizes and full details Click Here. To view the thread about the giveaway Click Here.

You think scales are going to gte you through? Ha!

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Telenator, Nov 26, 2020.

  1. Wulf

    Wulf Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    56
    Posts:
    1,443
    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2020
    Location:
    Saltburn England
    never did practice scales..or have any formal tuition...taught myself a few chords and went from there...i play in all sorts of styles...its good to be versatile...i learned by ear strumming along with whatever came on the radio
    mostly not what was modern music at the time...so it was a good learning curve around a guitar neck....i figured the chords quite quick...and soon figured what worked with a chord and why...but i couldnt for a minute tell you what scales i was using....probably pentatonic and andalusian...but i dont know....some of the stuff i played along to was in 3/4 time...not easy to do if your used to playing in 4/4
    started at 6 yr old ...first elec at 10
    my grandad..who couldnt play...explained the way chords looked from book...i just did it untill i got it...nylon stings...then steel when my fingers got stronger....2 chords in i was hooked as it were
    in a way you could even say i was taught by a man who couldnt even play...but he did understand chord diagrams...engineer after all...he would encourage me to play as much as i could
    he was a Glenn Miller fan...looked like him too
    Erik Nuttall...RIP
    Irene Nuttall...RIP
    my grandparents raised me as if i was their own
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
  2. Fuelish

    Fuelish Tele-Holic

    Age:
    63
    Posts:
    664
    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2018
    Location:
    foothills of the Great Smoky Mountains, east TN
    . I can do that, although I’ve forgotten more than I remember, more muscle memory and just playing what “sounds” right..I can fake it pretty well, at least in front of non guitarists ;)
     
    Telenator likes this.
  3. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    25,392
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I love Guthrie but put him in the “other” category of musicians who are just too advanced to even try to follow in my own playing.

    But, I get your point about his playing not being “playing scales”, and instead choosing whatever intervals suit his next musical thought.

    While all (not “all” but all he played there) sequences of notes can be attributed to one or another scale, the ability to move freely among all those possible patterns is I think what you mean.
     
    jman72, hepular, stinkey and 2 others like this.
  4. soundchaser59

    soundchaser59 Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,426
    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Location:
    Up The Creek
    That's what you get for not listening to the whole clip. Most of the "outside" stuff is in the last minute, not the first minute. But even the first minute is enough to tell that it's not all just pentatonic.

    That's just judgmental. You have to do some research on this guy before you judge him. I used to make that same mistake, but there is one thing that is NOT present in Govan's playing and that is ego.

    You say toMAYto, I say toMAWto. I'm not criticizing you or anything, I think I understand why you see it or hear it the way you do. But to me your comment here just described the playing of someone who has learned his scales so completely and with such mastery that he can step "outside the box" and back in, in and out of the box so fluently, that he gives the illusion that he has no box. If I close my eyes and just listen it sounds like there is no box. But when I watch his fingers while I listen, I see someone who knows the box so well and has such a mastery of the fretboard that he has a general idea of where the box is and what scale he is perverting at all times. He can twist the scale and bend the scale and pervert the scale and then bring it back to a scale any way he wants whenever he wants. But he always knows where he is. He's just that good.

    I used to think I could type the right words to make you see what you're missing, but that's a fools errand. There are people out there who would say the same thing about the players you love listening to. It's 50/50, it all washes out, like what you like but if you don't like it at least try to find more palatable ways to express it. Whatever it is, it is definitely NOT "wankery."

    Where I come from we call that "playing outside."
     
  5. fretWalkr

    fretWalkr Tele-Meister

    Posts:
    383
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2019
    Location:
    DFW
    He's an excellent player with a lot of cops. Sounds like he's mixing a lot of different techniqies and rhythmic development like a good jazz player would.

    I do hear a lot of very fast scalar playing, minor pentatonics, shredding with symetrical scales, chromatic runs, chromatic passing notes, and some nice rhythmic development tying phrases together.

    His backing track is interesting and avoids sounding just sitting on 1 chord. It sounds like he's changing keys constantly, maybe 8 or 16 bars at a time. The key changes sound like they're based on a symetrical root movement, like Coltrane used on Giant Steps. I call those multi-tonic systems.

    You're right there's more going on than basic scalar playing. I'm sure I missed a lot but that's some of what I hear. Good stuff.
     
  6. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    25,392
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Yeah you know one thing I'm most curious about is what people hear, how they hear it, how they classify or identify it as an overall soundscape, series of parts, noise, attempt to communicate beyond words, or pentatonic wanking.

    I listen constantly to everything, even when asleep.
    Some sounds i can finely identify, some sounds I can grossly identify, and some sounds I have no point of reference to.

    As far as Guthrie playing "outside", I've learned to play Albert Ayler stuff and it takes more than a bunch of passing tones to throw me off! Not that I play like him or use passing tones as my way "out" but I generally disdain my own conventionality and always try to break free.

    For my hearing or seeing, I don't hear him perverting or twisting a scale, or hear which scale now and which other scale later; as much as I hear intervals, which sort of like iron shavings near a magnet, keep trying to "cohese" themselves into familiar patterns.

    Not that my hearing is correct, just an interesting thing how we organize our hearing of music.
     
    Frodebro and soundchaser59 like this.
  7. MilwMark

    MilwMark Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    12,154
    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2013
    Location:
    near Arnold's
    I guess. Mostly I didn’t get annoyed trying to force my way through stuff that didn’t interest me. I just sped to the end and the last slide and note was cool. I’d listen to that as the last lick in a solo that was part of a song.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
    telemnemonics and swervinbob like this.
  8. 3-Chord-Genius

    3-Chord-Genius Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    8,878
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2015
    Location:
    Winchester, VA
    I hear predominantly minor pentatonic with some jazz flourishes thrown in for coolness. Pretty sure everything I'm hearing is connected to a scale.
     
  9. Toast

    Toast Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,503
    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2019
    Location:
    Scootchin' Over
    The first four chords of this song are so outside they're inside.
     
    MilwMark likes this.
  10. beanluc

    beanluc Tele-Holic

    Age:
    51
    Posts:
    672
    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2020
    Location:
    California Bay Area
    Oh relax, I'm just saying he's just making a funny face after pulling off a righteous run. You're reading too much in to it - and judging it.

    Anyone who's never surprised by their own playing isn't taking any risks.
     
    P Thought, swervinbob and Manual Slim like this.
  11. Manual Slim

    Manual Slim Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,723
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    Location:
    Up around the bend
    Furthermore, if ego were not involved we wouldn’t even know who he is. Not every mention of ego has to be pejorative.
     
  12. teletail

    teletail Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    71
    Posts:
    1,831
    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2019
    Location:
    West By God Virginia
    That was my thought too. A lot of cool licks stuck together, not overarching musical idea to hold it together. Just my opinion.
     
    paulblackford likes this.
  13. Telenator

    Telenator Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

    Posts:
    13,934
    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Location:
    Vermont
    So much of this depends on how a person approaches it.

    If you want to simply dismiss it as minor pentatonic with a few detours, you can probably squash it into that format if you try, but you'd have to ignore a lot of what's going.

    Sure, you can play a diminished arpeggio over a major chord in the right reference and then make a case for the over all tune being in any one of the types or 7 possible keys represented. But it's another interpretation.

    The simple wealth of quality responses here, in my opinion, means that there really is more to this than a simple pentatonic approach. It also means that there are several valid approaches to this piece. And it also means that some people are not understanding what's going on.

    This is very cool as it all points to the depth of Govan's playing. I won't even pretend to be able to play the way he does. But I sure do appreciate it when I hear some one do such a masterful job of mixing things up a bit.
     
    superjam144 likes this.
  14. drmordo

    drmordo Tele-Holic

    Age:
    46
    Posts:
    828
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2019
    Location:
    Miami, FL
    I very much agree. I actually was pretty surprised to hear that jazz influence.

    Honestly, he plays guitar a lot like I do, just about 25% faster and with more distortion.

    If you want to hear a rock player who sometimes abandons scale based playing, just fire up some Eddie Van Halen. I've been studying his stuff a bit since he died, and I swear every song is a lesson in itself. And, much of the stuff that he plays that is based on the minor pentatonic doesn't sound like it at all, which I can not yet comprehend.
     
  15. rough eye

    rough eye Tele-Meister

    Age:
    62
    Posts:
    230
    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2019
    Location:
    nj, usa
    i had to go back and listen to this again. Dbm throughout, except a sort of bridge at one point where the changes behind him go to A7 Ab7 Dbm and Gb about 4 times i think. listening again (never heard this guy before) he sounds really good. sounds like a more distorted but less sloppy Jmmy Page. I'm guessing he listened to some Steve Morse too.
     
  16. 3-Chord-Genius

    3-Chord-Genius Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    8,878
    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2015
    Location:
    Winchester, VA
    Check out EVH's soloing around the time of "1984" - there's a definite Allan Holdsworth influence going on. The outro solo on "Drop Dead Legs" could easily be Holdsworth playing it, with all those dissonant notes. It's like Eddie starts at Point A, ends up at Point B, but goes through random letters of the alphabet on the way.
     
    drmordo likes this.
  17. superjam144

    superjam144 Tele-Afflicted

    Age:
    32
    Posts:
    1,082
    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2020
    Location:
    EMPIRE STATE
    It becomes a technicality vs. musicality debate, of which people tend to take a side...

    I know of very few "technical genius" players who are musical.

    Eric Johnson was, Buckethead.. I could argue depending on the given time period that Hendrix and SRV were as well.. EVH was another exception to this rule... Banjo Bela was on another level entirely... He memorized classical pieces that were 20 minutes long only weeks before sets.... Heard him playing Bach without missing a note on youtube at some festival..

    Most "technical" players obsess over speed and skill, and forget about the music. The exceptions seem to be rare...

    Perhaps I was quick to throw a label on Govan... you just lose interest in the next guy shredding over a prefab backing track asking for the guitar god crown be placed on his head.
     
    hepular, matrix and drmordo like this.
  18. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    25,392
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    Because I lived in Boston I got to hear an awful lot of players who truly did play as some comments here state that Govan plays.
    Not dozens but hundreds and hundreds.

    Had to listen to those guys a lot, often in music stores like the old Daddy's Junky Music on Mass Ave across from the Berklee school of music. Many times on a Saturday there would be half a dozen shredders all playing at the same time, and all sounding painfully close to the same
    I knew and played with a number of grads too, though that's not really my style.
    They were largely not allowed to HAVE a style as students, because they had to work so hard to shred up to the standards required to graduate.

    Now and then I'd be trying a guitar or amp and one of them would start a cutting contest, which was fun but I wasn't able to play like them, while in most cases they couldn't really play like me either.

    Anyhow, Govan has a style while also "being a shredder", though it's not really fair to call him that because he goes beyond shredding into his own thing.

    I can see not caring for it, but I also can't see analyzing it if you're not into it enough to listen to quite a lot and develop an ear for the typical shred in order to hear his uniqueness and his artistry that makes him not typical shred.

    Maybe it's like those of us who are not into crazy hot pepper varieties trying to judge those flavors.
    I don't like poblano and whatever all those designer peppers are, so they all taste bad to me, and I can't really judge them.

    I do like some hot peppers and sriracha, but I can't judge ghost peppers.
    Or maybe I can?
    Maybe I can say peppers that are hotter than the ones I do like, are mediocre tasting peppers?
    All those hotter peppers are just hot and not special because they are not to my taste?
     
    jman72 likes this.
  19. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

    Age:
    61
    Posts:
    25,392
    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2010
    Location:
    Maine
    I think it's very fair to say Govan's music is not tailored for most listeners, including me.
    I don't want to buy his records or hear him on the radio.

    I also don't like pop music at the other extreme, and prefer alt rock that's not too smart and not too dumb.
    There's no reason for many or most of us to like his sort of fringe music, and it's not even popular to "kids today".
    My interest is along the lines of what can be done with a guitar.
    If his playing was on a long smorgasbord table I would only put a few things on my plate.
    Cool to see (hear) it all though.
     
    Blue Bill likes this.
  20. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    8,042
    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2014
    Location:
    Maine
    Some of you guys crack me up. I wonder if you know who this guy is when you say he plays like you. Maybe so. Truth is he could play like anyone he wants to.



     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2020
    telemnemonics and stinkey like this.
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.