Wraparound lightning bridge normally found on Les Paul style guitars

[StevesBoogie]

Are lightning bridges supposed to be tapered where the thickness (and thus string height) is slightly larger on the bass strings (E-A) compared to treble strings (G-B-E)?

Firstly, I am a complete novice to guitar maintenance, but I know the terminology and involved processes. I ordered an inexpensive Junior style guitar last week and had issues with the stock bridge. I decided to switch it out for a wraparound lightning bridge. The low E side looked horribly high. Measurements are at home, but between 0.008 in and 0.009 sounds right for the low E. The high strings are measuring quite nicely so no issues there.

I tried my first stab with neck relief but nothing with adjusting the truss rod seemed to be doing anything. Well, I was able to see the action on all strings get higher, and then see the action on all strings get lower (hitting frets). I returned the relief to what appeared to be the best compromise for all strings. I did not use gauges/feelers and at this point was only eyeballing.

I decided to continue and focus on intonation and wow, was I pleasantly surprised! No adjustments needed. I triple checked this using my ear and a headstock tuner. I do believe the B string, on the 12th fret, was ever so flat. All other strings were spot on. I decided that I was going to accept this.

Stretched the new strings and played for several hours.

Man, that low E is just bugging me. I am ok with all the other strings. So, I looked up and down the neck from the bridge and from the headstock (I actually did that several times but only focused on the neck at that time). Then I noticed the lightning bridge. It is clearly a bit fatter on the bass side. This ends up making the action higher. The height of the bridge on the bass side is maxed out at lowest possible setting and height of bridge at treble side is, oh about 2/3 mm higher in order to achieve satisfactory action with no buzzing.

I decided to inspect my Epiphone Les Paul modern with the traditional adjustable saddle and stoppiece and looked at both pieces carefully. There is absolutely no tapering of height, everything is perfectly uniform.

So, being a novice ….. is it normal to have a wraparound lightning bridge that is slightly thicker (in height) on the bass side? I would say that this bridge is about .004/.005 in higher on the bass side vs treble side.

I have to admit, I was going down the path that my neck is warped and would have firmly concluded that until the discovery of the lightning bridge being tapered.

I apologize for not supplying pictures but I can keep it really simple for now and see if I am missing something regarding the expectation of the lightning bridge. I'd be happy to supply pics later tonight if interested.

Thank you all for any possible experience you may have!

 

[brookdalebill]

I believe they’re not tapered.
I believe you adjust the height with the bolts that the bar is mounted to.

 

[KokoTele]

The low E side looked horribly high. Measurements are at home, but between 0.008 in and 0.009 sounds right for the low E. The high strings are measuring quite nicely so no issues there.

What exactly were you measuring? Those numbers are not in the ballpark for anything that you've described.

I have not heard of a wraparound bridge design that is thicker on one side than the other. Where did you get this bridge? And what were the issues with the stock bridge?

 

[Danb541]

mojo axe makes a compensated wrap around bridge. Maybe that's what he's talking about. I'm confused too.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Koko beat me to it. Most people set up guitars with the bass strings slightly higher at both ends which can be done by tilting the entire bridge with the two studs. The bridge itself should follow the neck radius - most of the time that will be 12 inches. What that means is that the action on each string increases as you go across the neck. I might do something like 0.050 on the high E, then 0.055, 0.060, 0.065. 0.070 and 0.080 on the low E. However I do that by simply tilting the bridge. If yours happens to be thicker on the bass side I wouldn't worry as long as you can get the action you want.

If you are new to setting up guitars you might find a thread that I did some time ago helpful. Particularly the part about evaluating a guitar and measuring stuff before you start.

Basic Setup

There are a couple of threads running right now where questions have been asked about leveling frets, making nuts and other setup related topics. I’ve commented a bit and I’ve received a few private messages asking about aspects that we’ve been discussion. I thought maybe it was time to...

www.tdpri.com

 

[StevesBoogie]

Here is the bridge from StewMac ("Golden Age Lightning Bolt Wraparound Bridge")

What exactly were you measuring? Those numbers are not in the ballpark for anything that you've described.

Those numbers were speaking to the string action height. If we disregard the numbers, what I was saying is that the low E string has quite high action starting about the 4th fret all the way to the bridge.

You can't quite get the proper angle on any internet hosted photo of this particular bridge in order to appreciate the size issue that I am discussing. I will try to load photos tonight. Like I said it is slight, and I hope it comes out in the pics.

Thank you all so far, very helpful!

 

[1 21 gigawatts]

I've got both a Gibson and Epiphone LP Jr. It appears to me that the lightning tabs are a uniform height off of the base. Since the base is contoured front to back, the closer to the centerline the lightning tab is, the higher it will be. Since the low E string is closest to the centerline, it is higher. This works well to keep the bar relatively flat while allowing for higher string height on the low strings.

Of course, I could be completely wrong and it could just be an optical illusion...

 

[W.L.Weller]

@StevesBoogie, if I understand you, you are saying that if you measured the bass side with a caliper, from the bottom (where the ball end of the string is held) to the top of the raised "lightning bolt" that functions as the saddle, that dimension would be noticeably greater than the same measurement on the treble side?

Ah, @1 21 gigawatts may have hit upon the geometric explanation.

Does the "inexpensive Junior style guitar" you're working on have a set neck or a bolt-on?

 

[Peegoo]

If you have action issues, it's not the bridge that's at fault, it is neck relief. With the strings tuned up, relief (forward neck bow) should be in the neighborhood of .010" or therebouts at the 8th fret.

To measure relief, place a capo lightly between the nut and first fret. Lightly deptess the low E string to the 17th fret. Holding this in place, measure the gap between the bottom of the low Enstring and the top of the 8th fret. It should be about .010"

Once you have that adjusted using the truss rod, then you remove the capo and check string action over the neck. Action is adjusted at the bridge (raise, lower).

 

[Chiogtr4x]

Koko beat me to it. Most people set up guitars with the bass strings slightly higher at both ends which can be done by tilting the entire bridge with the two studs. The bridge itself should follow the neck radius - most of the time that will be 12 inches. What that means is that the action on each string increases as you go across the neck. I might do something like 0.050 on the high E, then 0.055, 0.060, 0.065. 0.070 and 0.080 on the low E. However I do that by simply tilting the bridge. If yours happens to be thicker on the bass side I wouldn't worry as long as you can get the action you want.

If you are new to setting up guitars you might find a thread that I did some time ago helpful. Particularly the part about evaluating a guitar and measuring stuff before you start.

Basic Setup

There are a couple of threads running right now where questions have been asked about leveling frets, making nuts and other setup related topics. I’ve commented a bit and I’ve received a few private messages asking about aspects that we’ve been discussion. I thought maybe it was time to...

www.tdpri.com

Always trying to learn, thanks...question:
When you say
'Most people setup so that the bass strings are higher at BOTH ENDS...'
What do you mean by ' both ends'?
Are you referring to the nut end of the strings and the saddle end of strings?
( implying nut height can't be to low on the low strings)
Just trying to understand.

I like how you describe matching saddle height ( approximately) with string radius. Thanks!

( bookmarking thread for 'future personal reference' as in NGD, someday!)

 

[StevesBoogie]

Does the "inexpensive Junior style guitar" you're working on have a set neck or a bolt-on?

Thank you WLWeller and everyone else, great community. The guitar is definitely set neck.

It is a Vintage V120 ReIssued Electric Guitar Two Tone Sunburst. I ordered it from the Netherlands and I had it in my hands less than 52 hours later. It has a propietary Wilkinson bridge that is a bit bulky that I didn't end up liking (or, a more accurate explanation would be that I was always interested in the lightning style bridge).

But correct about your caliper presentation. Yes, the thickness of the bridge on the low E side is noticably thicker, thus leading to the E string to be higher. I will definitely load some pics later.

But I will definitely digest everyone's helpful advice thus far!

 

[Freeman Keller]

Always trying to learn, thanks...question:
When you say
'Most people setup so that the bass strings are higher at BOTH ENDS...'
What do you mean by ' both ends'?
Are you referring to the nut end of the strings and the saddle end of strings?
( implying nut height can't be to low on the low strings)
Just trying to understand.

I like how you describe matching saddle height ( approximately) with string radius. Thanks!

( bookmarking thread for 'future personal reference' as in NGD, someday!)

Yes, what many people, including me, do at the nut end is exactly what I described at the saddle I measure the action at that end as the gap at the first fret and a nice medium/low clearance might be 0.012 high E, then 0.013, 0.014, 0.015, 0.016, 0.018. My feeler gauges are just the even numbers to I'm guessing at some of those but you get the general idea. By the way, the other action values I gave were measured at the 12th fret. Some people measure action at the 17th but I do all guitars (and other instruments) the same by measuring at 12. The math is easy, if I want to change the action at 12 by X I need to change the saddle height by 2X. Not too significant for a tele where you are just turning a little screw, very significant on an acoustic.

I'll add that the thread has been converted into a pdf which is much easier to deal with in your shop. You can print out one page if thats all you need. Available along with my spreadsheet if you want it.

 

[Swirling Snow]

You need a big flatblade screwdriver and a grinding wheel. Make the blade fit those slots on the studs. NEVER adjust those studs without loosening the strings. NEVER use a normal screwdriver. Spend a few minutes looking at old Gibsons on Reverb, and you'll see why.

From what you've said, it seems the "lightning bolt" may need to be filed down a bit to match the other strings, but those studs are the height adjustment.

 

[TwoBear]

You need a big flatblade screwdriver and a grinding wheel. Make the blade fit those slots on the studs. NEVER adjust those studs without loosening the strings. NEVER use a normal screwdriver. Spend a few minutes looking at old Gibsons on Reverb, and you'll see why.

From what you've said, it seems the "lightning bolt" may need to be filed down a bit to match the other strings, but those studs are the height adjustment.

I pushed like, but I feel I should add or possibly qualify a little? I think what’s being referred to deals with adjusting the bridge under tension?

The use of an Improperly sized tool can, and probably will create divots/gouges in/on the tops of the studs, if attempted at full string tension, and that would also refer to the two piece bridge/stop tailpieces, with the added threat/stress causing bowing to the bridge, especially when tightening/lowering the stop tailpiece?

My apologies to Swirling Snow, I just had some extra / ‘s that were getting old and I needed to use them!

 

[W.L.Weller]

You need a big flatblade screwdriver and a grinding wheel. Make the blade fit those slots on the studs.

Or use a nickel (non-U.S. readers, a thick, smooth-sided coin). Once the string tension is released, you shouldn't have a problem turning those with a coin.

 

[archetype]

You need a big flatblade screwdriver and a grinding wheel. Make the blade fit those slots on the studs. NEVER adjust those studs without loosening the strings. NEVER use a normal screwdriver. Spend a few minutes looking at old Gibsons on Reverb, and you'll see why.

From what you've said, it seems the "lightning bolt" may need to be filed down a bit to match the other strings, but those studs are the height adjustment.

This . Don't try to use a coin, either.

What @Swirling Snow describes will work well. Stew-Mac also makes a slick tool that does the job and fits over the stud, eliminating the possiblity that you'll slip and gouge the top of the guitar.

 

[W.L.Weller]

Don't try to use a coin, either.

Why? Should I post a picture of the pristine, undamaged slots on my Maestro Jr.? Or will you believe me that *without string tension* a nickel works perfectly fine?

 

[telemnemonics]

Thank you WLWeller and everyone else, great community. The guitar is definitely set neck.

It is a Vintage V120 ReIssued Electric Guitar Two Tone Sunburst. I ordered it from the Netherlands and I had it in my hands less than 52 hours later. It has a propietary Wilkinson bridge that is a bit bulky that I didn't end up liking (or, a more accurate explanation would be that I was always interested in the lightning style bridge).

But correct about your caliper presentation. Yes, the thickness of the bridge on the low E side is noticably thicker, thus leading to the E string to be higher. I will definitely load some pics later.

But I will definitely digest everyone's helpful advice thus far!

Did you ever get this adjusted?
We still got no pics and it has been TWO MONTHS!

The thickness of the bridge should not matter, unless the rest of the guitar is defective.

Because there should be a big air space under the bridge.

 

[McGoldTopp]

quit measuring it and play it

 

[Swirling Snow]

My goodness! I'm surprised at my own vehemence.

It might have something to do with this '59 aluminum stop bar sitting on my desk and the studs it rode in on.

On a new guitar, you should be able to spin the studs with your fingers. But they get old, and crusty. The studs, that is.