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Will electric cars be more reliable and require less maintenance...

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by jumpnblues, Oct 23, 2020.

  1. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    In BC nearly all consumer electricity is generated by hydroelectricity. In fact, the electric bill is called "hydro".
     
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  2. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    Yup. Lots of people around here wish that there was passenger service on the local railroad. I being one of them, but the country would need to make a major mental shift before it would be successful and I doubt that could ever happen in my lifetime.
     
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  3. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    Could this requiring 2 power sources and the associated costs of creating 2 of them for 1 vehicle be a part of that ? Oh wait , that's a Prius .
     
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  4. imwjl

    imwjl Poster Extraordinaire

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    Toyota is more ready to kick the gasoline habit than many might realize. Lots of practice with electric motors and manufacturing. They night have made a wrong turn on hydrogen. Still, that effort will probably show up in short haul trucking.

    For your responding to @otterhound the lead acid battery cars never died in fork lift trucks and industrial distribution centers. We (homo sapiens) got pretty good at ICEs right after the time he mentioned. Now after further perfecting ICE vehicles were in some fast learning with batteries and manufacturing in general.

    Just look up the stuff on how many pieces Tesla's eliminated between Model 3 and Y. Some details on VW platform manufacturing. iPhones aren't cars but there's another advanced manufacturing example. I predict it will be near impossible to beat the best manufacturers, and batteries are in their strategy.
     
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  5. otterhound

    otterhound Poster Extraordinaire

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    Shall we deal with the 800 pound Gorilla ? If the desire was to have the maximum effect overall , this focus on alternative fuels would center on industrial usage and not cars and truck on our highways .
     
  6. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    The EV issue is no different than the nuclear energy and photovoltaic solar issues. It takes the same number of BTUs of energy whether up front or over the long term regardless. Non starters until those industries are built without fossil fuel during manufacturing and maintenance.
     
  7. ghostchord

    ghostchord Tele-Meister

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    I own a Tesla Model 3. Had it for a little over a year. Let me tell you guys, the internal combustion engine is dead.
    There is no going back for me. What's a gas station? What's an oil change? Noise, smoke, bleh!
    The experience is like you're driving a space ship.

    Electric cars have fewer parts, they're a much simpler mechanical design, they outperform, they are more reliable. The range is a non-issue for most uses. Batteries, properly managed, last a very long time and can then be reused in slightly less demanding applications. I took a longer road trip and went camping, no issue, plenty of superchargers around.
     
  8. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    Hey, what ever happened to the kickstart/handcrank magneto system anyway?
     
  9. ale.istotle

    ale.istotle Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    If we are using magic wands we can wave those at the grid too.
    But seriously, EV's will phase-in as will electrical demand, distributed power generation, etc. Won't happen instantly.
     
  10. CharlieO

    CharlieO Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

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    I was just about to post a "laugh" emoji, but I stopped myself. Everything that you just said is absolute nonsense. The current electrical grid is more than adequate to power all of the electric vehicles that are currently in use, and no, all of that electricity is not generated from fossil fuel and nuclear power. Yes, much of it is, but we are moving to increased energy production from renewable sources. And even if electric vehicles are charged from a grid that relies on fossil fuels, those EVs use the energy far more efficiently than gas-powered vehicles. And as far as I know, no one is suggesting that our ENTIRE fleet of vehicles will be replaced with EVs.

    On the topic of batteries, they are getting less expensive every day, more compact and with greater capacity, and their lifespan currently is longer than the life of the typical gasoline-powered vehicle. There are plenty of Teslas, Chevy Volts, and Priuses running around with 300,000 or 400,000 miles on the original battery pack, and the "million mile battery" will be here soon. Charging? Have you ever visited a Tesla supercharger? Do you know what a an EV Fast charging station is? How much of an environmental nightmare has the fossil fuel automobile created for our world over the past 120+ years?

    Of course, I don't know anything about this stuff. I'm just a highly satisfied EV driver for more than 8 years.
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2020
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  11. Hpilotman

    Hpilotman Tele-Meister

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    Otterhound Quote : Shall we deal with the 800 pound Gorilla ? If the desire was to have the maximum effect overall , this focus on alternative fuels would center on industrial usage and not cars and truck on our highways .



    Prius is a gasoline engine and not a diesel. Toyota stopped short.

    "According to Bell Performance and Road and Track, customers who drive many highway miles often prefer diesel engines, since they are more efficient on these roads than gas engines. Diesel fuel simply packs more energy in every gallon than gas fuel, which makes it more economical overall. Diesel engines are still more efficient than gas engines, but less so for those who are mostly engaged in city driving. Diesel cars also have more torque, which results in better fuel economy along with more impressive acceleration."
     
  12. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    My main concern with EVs is ... winter. I don't live in southern California! I've heard so much about the lengths even Tesla owners go to to warm their cars (heated garages, separate, plug-in heaters to prewarm the car's interior, bundling up and relying on the heated seat only ...)

    I have friends who recently got a used Model S. (They already have a Prius and a hybrid Highlander.) I'll see what they think about it this winter. I woke up to this! First snow of the year.

    snow1 (1).jpg snow2.jpg
     
  13. jvin248

    jvin248 Poster Extraordinaire

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    .

    Tires and brakes maintenance are the same no matter what the power plant of the vehicle are, outside of the vehicle weight to start/stop. Some technologies have improved ICE maintenance picture: synthetic oil that can go many thousands of miles longer between replacement, filters that perform better/longer, platinum plugs that can go a hundred thousand miles.

    Getting rid of ICE is also getting rid of emissions systems like precious metal filled catalytic converters, a hundred engine sensors (that the car computer uses to control it), actuators to flip the air/fuel ratio or pump the fuel from the tank. A huge number of systems that can and do fail. Common failure replacements are starter motors, water coolant pumps, oil cooler/pumps, and transmissions with their own number of problems with pumps, oil and filter changes.

    This is a typical ICE transmission -- required to keep the vehicle operating at the most efficient points of the engine's power curve. Electric vehicles do not need this.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    Meanwhile .... Here is an electric motor. It gets really much more simple.

    [​IMG]

    Here is the Tesla motors and drivetrain (and suspension and brake rotors).
    Look at how tiny this is when compared to a typical V8 engine and transmission.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]

    A major problem with ICE is the US's reliance on importing gas and oil and the global politics that go along with that.
    What is the value of getting out of the gasoline addiction worth to a nation?
    No citizen of the country can reliably dig an oil well in their back yard or install an oil refinery in their garage ... but citizens can install solar panels:

    [​IMG]

    Imagine being a retiree where your solar system is charging the grid more than your car because you are not commuting every day. The meter spins in reverse and the power company pays you every month. Will there even be a few retirees who install a mini solar farm in their back yard to supplement that retirement check?


    .
     
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  14. Festofish

    Festofish Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    As long as there are lobbyists...there will be an inflated need for oil.
     
  15. howardlo

    howardlo Tele-Holic

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    I would think that replacing batteries would be very expensive.

    My main problem with them is the short distances than can be covered on a charge and the length of time required to recharge. Would make for very difficult and very time consuming lengthy cross country trips.
     
  16. ghostchord

    ghostchord Tele-Meister

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    Because the Tesla has regen breaking (i.e. you slow down and you're charging back your battery at the same time) the brakes hardly ever get used. On a normal stop I don't touch the brake pedal at all. My brakes and pads are gonna last forever on the Model 3. Gotta just use them occasionally so things stay clean.
     
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  17. ghostchord

    ghostchord Tele-Meister

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    Right now you can get a range of >350 miles on a full battery. And you can recharge in let's say half an hour in a supercharger. And it's only going to get better from here but this is already fine. You gotta stop and use the bathroom and/or eat something and/or stretch your legs anyways, right? People do cross country trips with Teslas, it's not such a big deal.

    https://www.theverge.com/2019/8/5/20751975/ev-cannonball-run-record-broken-twice-2019
     
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  18. dkmw

    dkmw Poster Extraordinaire

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    I was gonna mention this huge advantage, but better for an owner to do it:)

    Conventional vehicles convert kinetic energy into heat as they brake. A Tesla converts kinetic energy into electricity right back into the battery. (As do other EVs and hybrids like the Prius)

    Another aside, F1 cars regen systems cause the car to brake at one G or more just from lifting.
     
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  19. Telekarster

    Telekarster Tele-Meister

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    Interesting post! From what I understand, electric cars vs. Combustion: the only diff is the drivetrain. Everything else is basically the same. Tires, steering components, shocks, brakes, plastics, polymers, etc. etc. to build will not change. A typical modern car has approx. 3-400 lbs of plastic and polymers in it alone, and most of this is derived from petroleum. Also, a standard 14" car tire takes approx. 6 gallons of petroleum to produce the rubber needed to make it. While combustion engines use oil and fuel, the massive batteries in electric cars are equally toxic and non-env friendly. Also it takes a massive amount of resources to produce those elec motors, batteries, etc. So... it's sort of like "pick your poison" IMO, and not sure there will be much benefit to the env with elec cars in the long run, but who knows. The only thing I do know is I can't afford electric on any level, espeically maint costs, so... for me I'm stickin' with gas ;)
     
  20. ghostchord

    ghostchord Tele-Meister

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    EVs are *much* friendlier to the environment today, not in the long run. Also think about the air you're breathing in the city, the noise pollution, the particulates from people's brakes. 6 gallons of petroleum? That's like a trip to the grocery store on an ICE SUV ;) Unless you do your own maintenance (and even if you are) I'm not sure how you're saving maintenance costs either. What is true is that EVs are quite expensive, so $-wise they may not make sense to many people. There are incentives in different places that help. Also look at total cost of ownership, not just the initial cost. SUVs ain't exactly cheap either or the nicer sedans.

    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Envir...ric_car#Environmental_impact_of_manufacturing :
    In 2017, a report made by IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute also calculated that the CO
    2 emissions of lithium-ion batteries (present in many electric cars today) are in the order of 150–200 kilos of carbon dioxide equivalents per kilowatt-hour battery.[44] Half of the CO
    2 emissions (50%) comes from cell manufacturing, whereas mining and refining contributes only a small part of the CO
    2 emissions. In practice, emissions in the order of 150–200 kilos of carbon dioxide equivalents per kilowatt-hour means that an electric car with a 100kWh battery will thus have emitted 15–20 tons of carbon dioxide even before the vehicle ignition is turned on. However, Popular Mechanics calculates that even if the 15–20 tons estimate is correct, it would only take 2.4 years of driving for the electric car with a 100kWh battery to recover the greenhouse emissions from the battery manufacturing.[45][46][47][48] Furthermore, two other studies suggest a 100kWh battery would generate about 6-6.4 tons of CO
    2 emissions, so significantly less than what the IVL study claims.[49] .

    However, in December 2019, IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute updated their 2017 study, reducing their estimate to 61-106 kg CO2-eq per kWh of battery capacity, with potential to go even lower.[50] The new study therefore shows carbon emissions from battery production are 2-3 times less intensive than previously reported, questioning studies that had taken the 2017 figure to prove EV were not better than ICE cars on life-cycle assessments.

    Citing the 2019 study:

    "The apparent decrease in total GWP [Global Warming Potential] from the 2017 report (150-200kg CO2-eq/kWh battery capacity) to 61-106kg CO2-eq/kWh battery capacity is partly due to that this report includes battery production with nearly fossil free electricity use which is the main reason for the decrease in the lowest value. The lowering of the high value is mainly due to improved efficiency in cell production. Another reason for a decrease is that the emissions from recycling are not included in the new range. They were about 15kg CO2-eq/kWh battery capacity in the 2017 report."

    A 2020 study from Eindhoven University of Technology mentioned that the manufacturing emissions of batteries of new electric cars are much smaller then what was assumed in the IVL study (around 75 kg CO2/kwh) and that the lifespan of lithium batteries is also much longer then previously thought (at least 12 years with a mileage of 15000 km annually). As such, they are more ecological then gasoline-powered internal combustion cars.[51] [52]
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2020
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