Wide range humbucker compared to PAF?

[Verzila]

What is the difference in sound between a regular Gib-type humbucker and a Fender-type wide range humbucker? Specifically, in the neck position?

Many thanks

 

[stormin1155]

I have a Classic Vibe Squier Thinline with Wide Range humbuckers and a Les Paul with Seth Lovers. The WR sound more Fenderish in terms of attack and tone... they are brighter, but how much of that is due to the pickup and how much is due to the differences in the guitars, I don't know. The Seth Lovers would sound different... probably more Fenderish, in the tele than they do in the LP. You have different woods, different scale which means different string tension, and different construction, so not an apples-apples comparison.

The Wide Range humbuckers I have of course are the reissues. As far as I know, they are the same pickups Fender uses in their MIM teles as well. I don't know how the originals with the CuNiFe magnets would compare. The reissues are really a standard humbucker design made to look like the originals, and I suspect that in an apples-apples comparison they wouldn't sound that much different than other low-output humbuckers. I happen to like them.

 

[loopfinding]

I have a Classic Vibe Squier Thinline with Wide Range humbuckers and a Les Paul with Seth Lovers. The WR sound more Fenderish in terms of attack and tone... they are brighter, but how much of that is due to the pickup and how much is due to the differences in the guitars, I don't know. The Seth Lovers would sound different... probably more Fenderish, in the tele than they do in the LP. You have different woods, different scale which means different string tension, and different construction, so not an apples-apples comparison.

The Wide Range humbuckers I have of course are the reissues. As far as I know, they are the same pickups Fender uses in their MIM teles as well. I don't know how the originals with the CuNiFe magnets would compare. The reissues are really a standard humbucker design made to look like the originals, and I suspect that in an apples-apples comparison they wouldn't sound that much different than other low-output humbuckers. I happen to like them.

the RI WRHBs (before the new cunife ones) are just PAF style HBs/PAF sized bobbins with filler material under the cover. no construction difference. maybe fender winds them low, hence perceived clarity or claims about how they're "voiced" a certain way. 1Meg pots are sometimes used as well. and of course, any HB will sound brighter in a 25.5" scale guitar.

in a real WRHB, cunife vs alnico makes little difference. the main thing is the construction - that they have magnet pole pieces instead of a bar magnet which magnetizes steel pole pieces. think about how the older singles in the MIMs and squiers or a g&l MFD with the bar mags below sound different/thicker than the vintage style alnico ones...it's like that difference but in HB land.

i guess i'd describe the sound like a hotter, more middy fender SC, or a really mid-tamed HB. it's a little flat/even sounding compared to a regular HB, and not as scooped/jangly sounding as a fender SC. sort of like a duller noiseless pickup.

it is also sort of like a firebird pickup (a true firebird pickup, since that's also mag pole pieces), but a little hotter and less clear (more winds, larger coil dimensions). the firebird is sort of like the mini HB to the WRHB's PAF.

personally i find the WRHBs to just kind of be in no man's land. super versatile but really middle of the road sounding. OTOH a true firebird sounds more like a big single with a little more mids.

 

[sudogeek]

I’ve sorta A/B’d these pickups in two guitars I had a while ago. G&L used Seth Lover HBs in their US Bluesboys and many early Tribute (Indonesian-made) Bluesboys. Compared to a Fender (California Series) Fat Tele with WRHB, the Bluesboy was hotter and brighter than the Tele.

 

[crazydave911]

I'm not a Gibson guy by any stretch but I like a PAF in neck position. There's nothing wrong per sey with WRH but I personally think they sound a little flat, uninspiring

 

[arlum]

Since Seth Lover designed both the PAF for Gibson and the Fender Wide Range Humbucker I have to assume they have a lot in common.

 

[SbS]

Just my limited experience (in neck position).

Especially with 1Meg pots, CuNiFe WRHB (modern) can indeed reach wide range of frequencies and beautiful cleans. On the other hand, it's very sensitive with height adjustments and such. Depending on a setup, bass frequencies can sound little wobbly or boomy, trebles are clear but not spiky. IMO WRHB reacts a bit differently with pedals and overdrive / distortion / fuzzes, than other pickups.

PAF style pickups (I haven't used real vintage deals though) feel more straightforward, darker in neck position, are easier to adjust / control and getting sound good with any kind of crunch.

 

[Wooly Fox]

I think the best way to try this is to go to a store and have a go on the AO 70s Telecaster Custom with the CuNiFe WRHB in the neck and a reissue SG or LP (think they have the vintage wound 59s).

I own a AO 70s Telecaster Custom and I would say that since owning a proper vintage PAF, the charm of the WRHB has worn off. The PAF is nice and broad in it's sound, not too dark and is perfectly usable in my CS 336 for jazzy chords to full on rock power chord riffage.

The Tele on the other hand can do this but not as you expect it. As a humbucker, it worked really well for a certain set of tones with a clarity that isn't very humbucker like, more single coil. They are a fiddle to set up and you feel you need to keep tweaking the height and poles pieces to get the best sound. I tend to use if you rhythm guitar, don't think I would want to play lead on it as it's too dark (well mine is) to cut through a mix. Does sound killer with fuzz though!

 

[Dacious]

I’ve sorta A/B’d these pickups in two guitars I had a while ago. G&L used Seth Lover HBs in their US Bluesboys and many early Tribute (Indonesian-made) Bluesboys. Compared to a Fender (California Series) Fat Tele with WRHB, the Bluesboy was hotter and brighter than the Tele.

Since Seth Lover designed both the PAF for Gibson and the Fender Wide Range Humbucker I have to assume they have a lot in common.

This is just .... Incorrect.

@loopfinding above is correct.

Seth Lover said Gibson took what he considered a prototype and put it into production. The WRHB is what he was shooting for.

The WRHB is an attempt to provide Fender single coil tone in a hum cancelling design. It has more highs, more lows than a PAF. If you're looking for trad blues/rock the WRHB is not necessarily a good thing or preferred thing. The compressed PAF sound a la Page or Green or Moore is perhaps a feature of that design. The WRHB has its own thing that responds differently to PAFs with drive and amp overdrive. It's much more transparent. Like a Tele compared to many other guitars.

It's much physically bigger - because the two bobbins are the size of Telecaster bridge single coils. They're bigger than Gibson PAFs. With awg 42 windings they are 7kohm apiece. PAFs are about 7kohm or 3.5kohm each with both coils in series. But the big fat magnet in the base extending up via steel screws through the poles is what gives the PAF it's characteristic middyness because inevitability there's some frequency cancellation.

The Cunife magnets (copper, nickel ferric) are very weak by comparison. But being close in the middle of a fat coil with three exposed and three alternate pole blind creates humbucking without killing bandwidth.

Three in each row are North, and three South On each pickup there's one South and one Row.

It means the magnets in each row are oriented the same way. But the string interaction tends to be largely with the exposed poles - so the blind poles cancel hum, not frequency.

In practice as mentioned the pre-2019 Fender reissues are not true WRHB. They may sound OK..for many people they're actually better. They're like a PAF with a bar magnet. That doesn't mean they sound bad par se.

But only the newest 2020+ US reissues have Cunife threaded pole screw magnets and the correct bobbin sizes and windings. They do indeed sound pretty much like the old ones and are potted so they don't squeal

Be warned - they're not for everyone.

 

[Nick Fanis]

Totally different.
The cu-ni-fe WR sounds like a big,clean ,WONDERFULL single coil pickup w/o the hum.
The humbucker sounds...well like a humbucker (my least favorite pickup design because of the inherent compression)