Wicked Game - Is it really dorian?

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Guran, Sep 24, 2009.

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  1. Guran

    Guran Friend of Leo's

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    I've been listening to the tune most of the day now. I'll have no problem buying that it's in B minor, but still I hear the E chord as home. The home chord is the IV of B minor.

    warmingtone seems to think quite a bit like I did, while strat a various has a radically different approach. I don't know if one is right and one is wrong, or if this is a case of one person describing gray as "kind of white" while another person says "kind of black".

    This is something I don't understand. Could you please elaborate?

    The way I understand it, the notes in the E mixolydian scale, set or collection are E, F#, G#, A, B, C# and D. From those you can build Bm, A and E(7). I think most, if not all, the notes James plays are within that collection.

    Or do you mean that the mixolydian sound just fits over the E7. Well, I'll buy that.

    Or is it something else that I'm just too ignorant to get?

    While I could see why E blues wouldn't work I could, with my poor imagination, just not see this tune as a vehicle for blues. I just sat down and played a little. Stylistically B blues fits way better than I could ever think. Interesting!
     
  2. WickedGTR

    WickedGTR Friend of Leo's

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    Just to clarify- the clip above is one of two videos that was made for the song... David Lynch directed the other video.

    Several songs from the Heart shaped World album (including Wicked Game) were remixed without vocals and used in the soundtrack for Wild at Heart... The instro version was on the B side of the single and the movie soundtrack album (and elsewhere)....

    Here's the trailer-



    But anyway, back to the music, there's some open B and E strings going on throughout the verse and chorus over all of the chord changes, to add to the confusion.

    I always thought the reason the intro riff 'works' is that your ear (brain?) really wants those bent notes to resolve... and it takes awhile, so it pulls you along. The whole intro riff is basically 'out of tune' until the very end.

    Or is it mictrotonal? (emoticon)
     
  3. slowpinky

    slowpinky Tele-Afflicted

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    No one can dispute the way you hear it, or the performer hears it, Strat, but I and I believe many theorists, would disagree with you about your dictum of this tune to be categorically NOT modal.

    I certainly don't hear the E7 as dissonant ,because in fact IV7 to Im(or vice versa) is characteristically dorian in a contemporary context - just as V7-I is characteristically Ionian - you said it yourself earlier when you talked about the commonality of the im-IV7 together in mainstream harmony.



    The context is important because the word 'modal' has been bandied about for hundreds of years - and music has changed alot over that time - so I dont see any reason why we cant use it in a contemporary context here.
    If we were going to take a more traditional harmonic perspective then minor as a pitch collection where chords are involved is usually harmonic in the first instance - and this melody is not based on a harmonic minor.
     
  4. Guran

    Guran Friend of Leo's

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    I'll tell you what it is; It's ingenious!
     
  5. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    WickedGTR, correct me if I'm wrong, I listened to the CD version, presumably the original cut, and I'm not even really hearing an E7, I'm hearing B min, A sus4 to A, E sus4 to E, predominantly triads. I'm also hearing no notable events involving a "D" being played or heard during the "E" section. I'm not hearing Mixolydian over E, just the recurring major 3rd.
    That note, the Major 3rd of E, G#, only happens in the melody or the guitar signature licks as passing tones or pickup notes to the "E" chord, and over the E. I'm hearing a scale over the B min and most of the A until the lead-in to the E, as a B min Natural scale. I'm not able to play that G# over the B min in any circumstances during the tune, only as it relates to the E. If you can't play melody or solo lines containing a main note of the scale over the root chord of the tune, I declare the tune to be non-modal, if it were a modal composition, G# would fit over the Bmin as a Dorian scale ... it does not.
    This is not that complex. The G# tone does not work over the B min, it only appears as it relates to the E chord, thus it's neither a B Dorian nor an E Mixo modal tune.
    Much like many Pop and Jazz tunes, not to mention folk pieces, we play scales that fit the individual chords and the melody changes tone center as needed with the chords, there is no underlying modal concept here.
    One more nitpik, WickedGTR ... we define "resolve" differently. I'm not hearing a resolution to the E triad, I'm hearing a medium tension note that wants to resolve back to the B min, but can be left hanging at the end for a mysterious quality. The G# tends to resolve up to the B natural, but isn't dissonant enough to warrant a forced resolution.
     
  6. slowpinky

    slowpinky Tele-Afflicted

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    To say there is no 'underlying' modal concept for a tune like this is like saying theres no underlying modal concept for Scarborough Fair. The dorian doesnt sound great on the im chord of that either, but I'm pretty sure its 'underlying' roots are in the dorian mode.

    I'm sticking to the melodic concept of modality here - because the harmonic one has too many options and we are as tonal beings far more immersed in the world of diatonic tonal and chromatic harmony, which establishes "I" in a very different way to the way modal melodies do, to catch on to the subtleties of modality when it appears.

    My understanding is that even in Dorian mode the traditional use of the 6th was actually a kind of surprise note - something out of the ordinary that gives dorian a particular quality.

    That 'mysterious quality' I think is exactly the underlying modal quality of this tune - its not about what scale fits over the whole thing when you are improvising - because apart from the minor pentatonic which removes the controversial VI from the equation - what one single mode blankets a tune in that way succesfully?

    Does that mean that no harmonised melodies are modally based?
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2009
  7. WickedGTR

    WickedGTR Friend of Leo's

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    Yes- no E7....

    I may have been using the 'resolve' loosely, I was referring to the bent single note coming up to pitch- not chords resolving.

    Interesting (to me?) is after seeing other people play it, it seems that a lot of people get the notes right, but have trouble getting the timing right on the arpeggiated part. I think there's some funny triplets (?) in there.
     
  8. warmingtone

    warmingtone Tele-Holic

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    Sorry, my error...yes 3 sharps, G#,C#,F#...it's been a while that I've had to type this stuff out quickly. D being the relative major of Bminor...A the melodic material shares the tone set equivalent to A major

    I too take the view that it is B minor, but not from the melodic or harmonic minor scales clearly...if it is in B minor...the IV chord is major as is the bVII which is diatonic in B Dorian (ie VII not BVII)...

    The opening vocal melody...

    Bm...........Amaj...........Emaj.....
    -------------------------------------
    --------7-----------------------------
    ----6-7-----9-7-6-7-6----------------
    --9--------------------9-6------------
    -------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------
    b,c#,d,f#...e,d,c#,d,c#,b,g#

    I know I might be coming across as "modal-centric", this is in large part because this has been the opening to the discussions hear and lately.

    One could "analyze" and understand things in all different ways...one could for instance take a a chord tone approach just as well...the first part spells out a Bm triad(add2) the second A major (add4) and the third part E major (no root).

    I have not said that the composer was "thinking" modally, but using a modal sensibility. There are no V chord functional harmony, there is a dominant7 chord, but it is diatonic to B Dorian as opposed to B natural minor (aeolian).

    I've not heard of "mode mixture" as a technical term, but I have come across the idea and is prevalent in minor keys where to fit the "classical" theories, things have to be altered, yet the modal sensibilities (non-functional harmony) have prevailed. Much of the approach of traditional harmony is to try and make things fit or see them as exceptions, when perhaps they are just a different approach. As thing historically developed, harmonic impulses became dominant over melodic explanations in the western world.

    BTW...I see music such as the blues very much fitting modal sensibilities for instance...certainly doesn't "fit" conventional harmony "rules" without a lot of effort...but not modal as in "church modes" but it's own modes and conventions, it's vocabulary and syntax if you like.

    ...

    So, in analysis (and because of the OP's question) I was looking for the best fit, and to me it sounds like a minor mode, and all the notes and chords fit without alteration into this analysis...I don't need to flatten the VII chord or alter the minor to a major for the IV. To me this is forcing it to fit a different sensibility.

    I can see how people could hear that prominent g# at the end of this phrase as an altered note...that is not a "wrong" way of hearing it...I can hear it that way as well, it's all about sensibility and expectation of the listener.

    I can hear that the G# sounds somewhat "unusual" or poignant...but then again, this tone/sound is a hallmark of the dorian mode and gives it is character and harmonic vocabulary diatonic to that mode (as opposed to B natural minor)...to make other ideas "fit" they need to be altered.

    For instance, if a natural Bm...the IV chord (E) would be minor, so to make it "fit" we have to alter it, while in Dorian it is characteristic. The VII chord (A) in dorian would be A major (even a maj7) but in natural Bm minor while A major the seventh would be Dominant...this could work, but G never appears in the harmony or the melody where the G# (A's major 7th) is a prominent and repeated tone. To make this "fit" then in a B natural minor this 7th would need to be heard as "altered" in B natural minor while it is characteristic of B dorian.

    Further, if one were to look at that characteristic G# note and the lack of G, if A were to be considered V of D, then we would have to consider D as being Lydian! So that the relative major concepts...D being the relative minor to B...also fall short without alteration.

    While it can sound OK to make the A dominant, a use for the G note for instance, this makes for a V7 chord in D the relative major...at no time do I hear the harmony or melody pulling towards that key or D sounding like a relative major.

    The E chord is also potentially dominant, either as a natural part of Dorian, or as an altered chord...I don't hear any "pull" towards A major, if anything it sounds at home as people have remarked...a hallmark of E mixolydian and has been discussed.

    Possible, but it sounds like Bm to most...the effect of the E sounding at home is because of the modal sensibilities that are melodically driven and so the E(7) is heard as a natural occurrence in the mode, not and altered chord or a dominant chord pulling towards a tonic as in functional harmony.

    The expectation that a tune should end on the tonic chord is a functional harmony expectation, not a modal one which is my conjecture.

    ...

    This kind of observation also lends to my conjecture that the "drive" of the song is melodic and not harmonic...again, a modal characteristic. Similarly with blues, we see "out of tune notes" being used to create tension and release...a characteristic of much ethnically oriented and folk traditions that use modal and melodic sensibilities (celtic and asian musics for instance) over harmonic drives.

    ...

    If one wanted to impose more traditional functional harmony to it...we tend to look for a V-I or equivalent to establish the tonic. Most seem to hear it as Bm, yet there is no F# chord in there, implied or otherwise. No relative major pull to make it seem like a "false" cadence in D. If E, we could construe the Bm as an altered V chord (minor) but it takes a little effort.

    "Jazz theory"...if seen as a ii-V-I in A...well, I can't hear it pulling towards A at all.

    ...

    The "sweet home alabama" thing I might be missing the point. D-C-G where G sounds like "home" indicates a repeating V-IV-I progression. Further, the C is a C(add9) chord and could be heard as an elaboration of the V-I such as D with a seventh in the bass...I don't see this as particularly modal (unless you seek to see it as Ionian) but a repeating V-I cadence reinforcing G as the tonic chord.

    ...

    So...yes, some typographical errors there with the 3 sharps there...my apologies, the correction only reinforces the conjecture and what was intended...sorry for any confusion from that.

    The question was raised as to how this tune could be viewed modaly and in fact to me, it is the "best fit".

    ...

    As for the Bach thing, this comes largely from my university training overseen by a doctorate that wrote a book on the subject "species counterpoint" that did identify all the characteristic patterns and rules. However, this was extrapolated from the vast quantity of music analyzed and he could not find evidence that a Bach was thinking explicitly in this way (theory first) when composing the material. I've not found anything that suggests that Bach "composed" by mathematics, there is certainly a lot of analysis after the fact along those lines...I wasn't there, so I can't personally, absolutely say he didn't I guess, but he certainly kept it well hidden from the history books as far as I can tell.

    Similarly that the composer of "wicked game" didn't think, "I'm going to write a tune in Dorian"...a tune was written which "fits" all the modal rules and sensibilities and may well have been subconsciously influenced by all the powerful folk traditions that still work in this way, particularly in minor keys.

    ...

    I suppose it comes back to the kind of concepts I was exposed to with this kind of thing. The first lecture (and this was some time ago now) posed the question; "what is music". The conclusion, roughly and debatable I suppose, was that music is where the listener can perceive some kind of structure to it. One could perceive the rhythm of waves on a shore as music perhaps. A composer manipulates sound patterns for expressive intent...a theorist looks at the patterns of sound and describes those patterns after the fact.

    Underlying all this is the minds innate desire to search for "patterns" and these can always be explained through the language of numbers...and perhaps that is what was being eluded to.

    These patterns may be perceived by exposure and osmosis, the minds natural drive to look for patterns in everything, education...or, without, as simply random noise. What can seem to be noise at one stage, can over time be appreciated for what it is by the same person once "attuned" to the sensibilities underlying it.

    A bach may have his own sensibility and over time his work could be analyzed to reveal some "mathematical" rules...another composer may take analysis, say Bartok (whose ideas I wrote a paper on) that analyzed a lot of european folk tunes, noted some resemblances to the mathematics of the "golden section" and Fibonacci sequence and specifically applied these principles to his compositions.

    These kinds of underlying principles no doubt did have a significant impact on what someone like bach produced. But equally, he and composers of his era developed patterns that people of the time found to be challenging and revolutionary compared to the expectations (largely modal at the time) that came before. This was of course his and his era's "genius", equal temperament and the ability to modulate were giant leaps for instance.

    But...a big diversion from the topic for sure, perhaps even a small point and misunderstanding on both parts as to the statement I read and what was meant by it.
     
  9. JayFreddy

    JayFreddy Poster Extraordinaire

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    I just realized y'all are CRAZY! You're probably wondering what took me so long to come to this realization. It's good to know I'm not the only one... ;)

    The chords in the tune are diatonic to A major. The tonal center is B minor. The key siggie usually indicates the tonal center, not the diatonic accidentals.

    I think the reason it sounds so nice is because Mr. Wilsey used his ears to create something based off the melody first, chords second, and third, wasn't really thinking about the theory, he just went with his heart.

    Theory can help overcome obstacles and provide insight into chords and melodies, but the best music always starts in the heart, IMHO.

    How about that new James Wilsey CD? Where's the best place to order it to make sure Jim gets as much profit as possible?
     
  10. warmingtone

    warmingtone Tele-Holic

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    Hmmm...well to me it in no way relates to A major, unless you want to abstract B dorian from it as people tend to do...it is clearly B minor.

    There is a clear melodic cadence, not a functional harmony cadance that defines the mode centre unambiguously...

    On the last line of the vocal...

    "I don't want to fall in love...with you"

    ...these syllables are the notes D to B...we all recognize this as a blues cadence to that clear defines where the "tonic" is...it's that B...and regardless of any chord under it.

    As for hearing things as one chord at a time, that is a perceptual choice to do that, it ignores the overarching note choice and feel in favour of harmonic concepts over melodic ones.

    Yes...written from the heart, all this theory just comes later...but there are conventions about why something sounds right. The harmonic theories have predominated, but I believe that we think far more melodically.

    It might seem like a "chicken or the egg" debate, but there is no debate there either, the egg predates the bird!

    Slow Pinky made and excellent point about "scarborough fair" and these are the kind of modal traditions that are ingrained in our subconscious about what sounds "right". This sense of rightness allows one to play from the heart.

    It does seem a little pedantic, and the longer the debate, the more so it gets.

    We have ideas suggesting that the G# only appears where there is an E chord...implying the chords came first perhaps over a characteristic harmonic environment derived from the melodic material.

    But that is like saying that in a Major scale tune the 4th degree only occurs on the IV chord or as the 7th of V, or our troublesome 6th degree only occurs as on IV or a 9th of V...therefore it isn't major!?!

    Similarly, a blues tune that uses exclusively minor pentatonics is not in fact minor pentatonic even though all the material was taken from there by the same reasoning and must only be seen only in relation to the appearance of those notes where they appear over the chord playing at the time. Yes it can, but is it the overarching principle?

    The E is implied as being dom7th by the melodic material the note D (7th) is quite at home here...you couldn't play D# as the maj7 without it being forced and "altered".

    As for the heart thing, if a blues player knows that he is using the minor pentatonic for the solo...is he playing less from the heart for knowing this either academically (I'm going to approach this with minor pentatonic mode) or intuitively...when I play a blues and I select these notes it sounds "right" to me? If it was subsequently explained what he was doing there with names and theory..."oh, your a pentatonic player", would that make it less soulful from then on, or to the listener for knowing that? What makes things sound "right" anyway but tradition and listener expectations?

    ...

    Throughout these recent modal discussions there have been a voice that have been suggesting that the modal sensibilities are different. To understand this, you need to be able to put aside some theory and adopt others...if your "ear" is looking for chord tones in a chord by chord approach, of course you will hear them and when they sound unusual, you will perceive them as unusual, like the note G#...but if you hear it with a "modal" point of view you will see that note as a characteristic modal tone.

    But there's lots to support it being modal as has been discussed and not fitting into conventional harmonic interpretation...where's the V chord? E7 in A, A in D, F# in Bm...where is the harmonic "pull"...I don't hear it.

    What I hear is a strong melody from a set of notes and intervals that we can call "Dorian" by convention and extensive past use and a harmony that coincidentally fits from the same tone set as the melody. All the "drive" seems to be melodic and pretty much everyone who has commented seems to perceive it that way intuitively.

    ...

    Technically, this is wrong...

    So, your statement is contradictory...If the key centre is Bm, that is the key centre...other than a notational convention of a key signature, there is no suggestion that it's A major.

    So...the tonal centre is Bm as you state, and all the notes are "diatonic" to B Dorian, the second mode of A major. They are not "diatonic" to other minors at all.

    You can hear extensive Dorian playing in Santana's output and his preference for things like a Bm-E vamp...same thing. Naming it doesn't belittle it IMHO.

    ...

    There seems to be a misunderstanding that you would be putting all these analysis stuff into playing...that's not the way at all...all the theory and analysis is there only to explain how things work. It's not necessary for the creator to know the theory for the theory to be true...
     
  11. JayFreddy

    JayFreddy Poster Extraordinaire

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    Peace, Love, and BREVITY... ;)
     
  12. warmingtone

    warmingtone Tele-Holic

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    Sorry...B Dorian is not equivalent to A major...the notes of B Dorian are diatonic to B Dorian, not A major...but a small point.

    As for the rest...it quacks like a duck...a Dorian Duck...brief enough?
     
  13. JayFreddy

    JayFreddy Poster Extraordinaire

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    Deleted most of my previous post as it might have seemed overly curmudgeonly... Thanks for the brief reply! Sometimes I'm just grumpy, ask my wife!

    Still wanting to know the best way to order James Wilsey's new CD.
     
  14. ibobunot

    ibobunot Poster Extraordinaire

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  15. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Didn't mean to ignore you. First of all, I should have said "E", not E7, there is no E7 in the tune. Let's look at your list of notes. You have written out the tones of an "A" Major scale. This scale has some tones in common with the chords you listed, but other that the "E" triad, which I have identified as a chord substitution for E min, an "E" Major that adds an attractive dissonance to the harmonic content, the notes of a "D" scale (D E F# G A B C#) can make A and B min chords.
    Do you understand that your "A" scale, or "E" Mixo mode, can't be used to play over the B min chord? The G# doesn't fit anywhere until the approach to E. This tune is in B min, not B Dorian. The notes that fit are from a B min scale, not from a B Dorian scale or an E Mixolydian scale. When the progression gets to the E chord, the melody and soloist notes that fit are native to the E chord. There is nothing modal about the structure of this tune, just a quaint combination of chords with a simple catchy melody that's memorable for it's use of tension at the E chord.
     
  16. warmingtone

    warmingtone Tele-Holic

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    We may have different perspectives, I may be wrong...but I am failing to be convinced...

    No...I wrote out the melody...the notes there are the B dorian scale...same notes as the A major but a different interval set completely.

    No...i'm afraid I don't...what i find difficult is your inclusion of the G natural at any point in the tune. Obviously as a chord tone, it's not one you might want to linger on with a contradictory harmony...but that applies to any "theory". As I said in an earlier post, lingering on the 6th degree in major over the I chord is seldom advised either.

    ...

    I know what you mean, but I don't agree. It could be seen as an altered Em with the Bm as a minor V and the A being a bVII...but it doesn't fit as well as B dorian where all these things are characteristic and completely diatonic for the entire tune.

    As for your "A" scale, or "E" Mixo mode...I have consistently put forward B dorian, I have extensively (and apparently annoyingly) shown why I think this, I don't hear it in A at any point, E is an outside choice, not mine.

    Dorian is a different thing entirely despite it containing the same notes, the order and subsequent interval structure of the melodic material is significantly different.

    What I have been trying to get across (badly it seems) in recent discussions on modes, is that modes work differently, they are not just a major scale starting from a different root.

    That G# sounds "wrong" to ears not acclimatized to the characteristics of the mode...a natural G may well sound more comfortable and could be valid, it's not used anywhere in the actual tune, but no foul if you use it (A dominant 7 sounds quite nice there).

    I noted all the lacking functional harmony stuff as well...it needs not to have these all these words...it's clearly constructed from all the notes of the B dorian mode overall, but if people can't see that, well cest la vie. Other ideas are not as clear a "fit" but can be understood and work in their own way.

    I can see if I play B natural minor with the G natural over the Bm and Amaj chords it "works" but is a different effect. Perhaps it is that you find the G# objectionable if over these chords is because you can't hear the "mode" for the traditional harmony or chord tone approaches.

    The E7 is implied by the logical tertiary extensions from the home "scale". If B natural minor as you suggest the A chord would be a dom7 (include the G note)...clearly the note D is prominent in the melody over the Bm and A chords...so by extension...the 7th extension would be a b7 (this would be true if the conjecture were D or A major, E minor or B minor as well). If you improvise on it, the b7 d note is the only 'sound choice' or at least natural sounding however you look at it...that's the "implication of the 7th" that I was refering to.

    ...

    But you know what, it doesn't matter...you can easily see it as in Em with some kind of picardi third going on, I can hear that...

    It's an interesting proposition, personally I was looking for the overarching prognosis as the OP asked or to learn more and understand myself.

    From a scale set of the tones used throughout the melody and harmony, if the key centre is B minor as we seem to be settled on, the notes used conform only to the B dorian mode. At no point does the G natural note appear at all to suggest a different note set...there also has little if any Harmonic drive, no leading tones or 7ths really and no V cadances, all suggest a modal characteristics and is at least valid.

    ...

    In the end, this is contemporary music...in the end it comes down to primarily triadic chord tones, few extensions other than a few suspensions here and there to decorate them...it's elegant and simple and that's it's attraction.

    I'm sorry that this debate has turned the way it has if it has detracted from that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2009
  17. Boubou

    Boubou Doctor of Teleocity Gold Supporter

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    What are you guys talking about?:confused:
     
  18. slowpinky

    slowpinky Tele-Afflicted

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    :D
     
  19. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    A student of mine wrote his doctoral thesis on the golden section in the sacred cantatas of Bach. He found that the text of these could be separated into two parts. The first part is descriptive, expository, or filled with praise, while the second part is concerned with God's reaction, negative consequences of actions, and so on. He called these "textual turning points." My student found that these texts were set to music so that the textual turning point came at a certain point in the music. That point corresponds very closely to the golden section 0.618... of the work. Bach also sought membership in the Korrespondierenden Sozietät der Musicalischen Wissenschaften (Corresponding Society of the Musical Sciences), a group that studied the scientific aspects of music. The abstract nature of the score of Bach's Musical Offering (no instrumentation given) suggest to some that he had started to view music as an abstraction closer to math than to performance. His membership in the Mizler Society, as it was called, can be understood in these terms.

    More interesting to me is the correspondence between his canonic writing and the mathematics of group theory, a research area of mine.

    I guess you could say that Bach's music more closely corresponds to these areas of mathematics than almost any other composer before the 1950s. I should mention that by math, I do not mean calculation. I mean correspondences, mappings, combinations, and permutations, the tools of the abstract mathematician, not the arithmetician. Sometimes people think that composers who use math in their work do a lot of calculations, which is certainly not the case in my own music or the music of others that I know working in math and music today.


    was his submission to the society.
     
  20. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Why are you responding to my answer to guran as though I was directing my points to you? You're verbose, I'll give you that, but you're conjuring aspects of this Pop tune that aren't there... there is no E7 in the tune, G# is woefully dissonant over Bmin in this progression, and you're not giving solid cites that support your proposal that "Wicked Game" is modal.
    In short, many of your points are fabricated from your opinions and I can't see them relating to currently accepted definitions of Modal composition.
    I'll agree to disagree, or if you provide academic references that illustrate your claims clearly with regard to this tune, I'll stand corrected.
    If anyone thinks that these three chords with corresponding melody is an example of a modal composition, I really want to hear a legit definition that fits the example. I'm hearing two scales that support the melody and harmonic structure, B min and the chord tones of E triad, which may or may not imply an A scale or an E scale. I'm not seeing a B Dorian structure through the main part of the tune,(or any part of it, really).
    No offense intended.
     
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