Tele-Meister
Tele-Meister
And that's not an opinion, that's just fact...
Why would a 335 sound different than a Les Paul?
- Thread starter HaroldBKNY
- Start date
Cleantone
TDPRI Member
I have a 2021 Epiphone 335. I really like it for what it is (all stock, no mods so far) and often think about what a more high-level Gibson would sound and feel like. But then I recall that when I got it I A/B'd it in the store with a Gibson that listed for $3500 and while there were some differences (especially in the factory finishing), there wasn't $3000 difference. And when I upgrade the pickups and electronics I'd call them even. I think I'd have to nearly double that Gibson price and go custom shop or a boutique builder to really level up.
I also have a '71/'72 LP Custom. The LP and 335 both have humbuckers but very different pickups. The LP is a fretless wonder, and the necks feel quite different, so they provide a different experience but they are still more similar than not.
As others have said, when seated the 335 is much easier to play. The 335 is about 8.5 pounds, which isn't light, but the LP is over 9.5 pounds. Not a problem for me (yet!) but I understand why someone wouldn't play it based on that alone.
SoCal-Alan
TDPRI Member
I have Thinline Telecasters and standard. My thinline is more dark or smoky or warm sounding with more chime. Standard is more Sharpe sounding or twangy. On standard I have tried to tone it down with changing everything except the body and neck and tuners and bridge plate. Only thing left is change 6 to 3 on saddles. So who know why or what makes a difference.
Boreas
Doctor of Teleocity
Ever sit down with an acoustic guitar with fairly loud music playing across the room? Ever notice that sometimes the top and strings start vibrating sympathetically? The ambient sound frequencies can turn the both the soundboard and strings into vibrating bodies - especially when the top's fundamental frequency is approached. No pickups required. The wood imparts vibration to the strings, and vice versa. This isn't loud, but it "imparts" harmonics and overtones that we describe as "color". So - does the LP or the 335 transmit that "color" to the amplifier? The answer is yes. Will the "color" be the same? The answer is no. The instruments by nature of their construction pick up both onboard and ambient overtones differently. One also has acoustic chambers with thin walls, the other does not.
Every instrument will create overtones, but usually different overtones at different frequencies. Some guitars sound "warm", some sound "bright", some sustain forever, some sustain very little. The difference is more obvious to some than others, depending on the type of music you play and your ear.
Every instrument will create overtones, but usually different overtones at different frequencies. Some guitars sound "warm", some sound "bright", some sustain forever, some sustain very little. The difference is more obvious to some than others, depending on the type of music you play and your ear.
bigaldart
TDPRI Member
Ever plugged in a guitar with a tailpiece and strummed behind the bridge? Ever strummed above the nut on a strat or tele? They make a sound through the amp but they are not in the span over the pickups. A moving wire in a magnetic field energized by a coil has the same effect on the output voltage whether you move the string or the coil and magnet. On a guitar the coil and magnet are attached to the wood, if that wood vibrates then a voltage is produced in the coil. All these things contribute to what we hear as tone. Some people have better ears but to say the body the neck and the extremities of the strings have no effect only reflects a lack of insight and knowledge. It is physically impossible for those parts to not have an effect.
ficelles
Tele-Holic
While the environment surrounding the pickup does indeed not affect the sound (unless it's magnetic of course), the environment / supporting structure the strings are attached to does. Vibration analysis has proven this beyond doubt. You cannot change the laws of physics.
Cleantone
TDPRI Member
The main points I get from his videos are that when comparing similar guitars, amps, cabinets, etc.,
1) there are a few key components that affect the tone more than the rest and
2) you have to compare a given component in isolation to identify the differences.
If you give a player a custom guitar, amp and pedal rig, and then have the same player use an off the shelf rig of components designed to sound the same, they will sound remarkably similar. Such that all together, in a mix or live setting, most people would not be able to tell which was which, or perhaps won't be able to tell a difference.
It's a stunt, nothing more.
schmee said:
A local dealer here used to like to demonstrate that, through the gain channel of a Mesa Dual Rectifier amp, you can't hear the difference between a PRS and a Coral Sitar.
jrblue
Friend of Leo's
No, this conclusion is not what logic, or knowledge of physics (or even guitar design) would suggest. Nor is it what listening to guitars would reveal. (Sorry, but I'm, not going to set up a silly demo to counter the simplistic and unintentionally misleading "pickups are all that matters" video that has fostered so many wrong "analyses.") The truth is obvious, simple, and self-evident to anyone who actually listens to their own playing. Anything that affects how a string vibrates affects the signal generated in the pickup. Only true idiots think, incorrectly, that anything beyond the nut and saddle has no contribution to sound. This is obviously untrue, and particularly so for an electric guitar played at higher volumes. The vibrating body and neck send energy/vibrations back to the string, and these help shape the way the string vibrates and thus the resulting overall signal in various ways which can range from virtually inaudible to shrieking feedback, or muting some frequencies -- all kinds of stuff that can give a guitar a distinctive voice. On some guitars, the contribution of the instrument may have little to no audible effect. On others, it can be massive and distinctive. To "believe" (?) otherwise defies reason, science, and experience.
BlueGillGreg
Tele-Meister
To me they feel different when I play them. The player pays close attention to the sound and reacts instantly, and the initial attack is where the difference is clearest.
To me though, the double HB 135 is the versatile one: deeper than 335, shallower than 175, balsa short length center block, trapeze tailpiece. It's completely hollow under the neck pickup. This with the trapeze gives a good jazzbox sound. The stuffing under the lead pickup delays the onset of howl-around long enough to get into significant gain for rock sounds.
To me though, the double HB 135 is the versatile one: deeper than 335, shallower than 175, balsa short length center block, trapeze tailpiece. It's completely hollow under the neck pickup. This with the trapeze gives a good jazzbox sound. The stuffing under the lead pickup delays the onset of howl-around long enough to get into significant gain for rock sounds.
Tele-Meister
Tele-Meister
I agree with this too, this is similar to what I've been saying as well.
The thing is though... after watching that table video, the table Tele *really did* sound a lot like the Anderson Tele. I think only the tuners and pickups and strings and pickup height were the same.
Of course, I gave my reasoning for why a video like that can't speak for all cases (ie: do that with a humbucker, compare to a ES-335 and you may get a different sound), but I'd like to hear your reasoning/opinion about this:
Theoretically, a guitar's construction should affect the vibration of the strings, thus affecting the outputted result, yet the air/table guitar sounded very very similar to the Anderson Tele-- what's your take on this? Thanks!
Tele-Meister
Tele-Meister
I think if the finish is thick and soft, it will act as a dampener on the system, and therefore the fundamental will be emphasized more, and high end will be cut. This may be what one wants of course. Hard and thin finish is probably best in terms of high end and harmonics/overtones. I'm curious for other people's opinions as well.
Stingfan73
Tele-Afflicted
A 335 and an LP have very different construction, despite having similarities in scale length, headstock shape, and they’re both often spec-ed with humbuckers. I’d make the point there is more different about these two guitars than similarities. When you look it from this perspective…
Not only does a Semi-hollow the size and depth of a 335 sound different than a solid body LP, the playing experience is different, and I mean more than just the obvious differences in size, how that relates to your physiology, and even beyond being able to hear the Semi/hollow acoustically at lowest of plugged-in volumes. NO VIDEO, no matter how professionally done or rigorous in methodology will fully relay to you the differences. The ability is simply not inherently possible in that medium.
You’ll have to spend some time in real time with someone who’s spec-ed a 335 and a LP with the same pickups, to try to get used to the tonal and resonant differences, or you’ll have to do it yourself. I don’t know a third option. Videos or even sound files aren’t it. Sorry.
Not only does a Semi-hollow the size and depth of a 335 sound different than a solid body LP, the playing experience is different, and I mean more than just the obvious differences in size, how that relates to your physiology, and even beyond being able to hear the Semi/hollow acoustically at lowest of plugged-in volumes. NO VIDEO, no matter how professionally done or rigorous in methodology will fully relay to you the differences. The ability is simply not inherently possible in that medium.
You’ll have to spend some time in real time with someone who’s spec-ed a 335 and a LP with the same pickups, to try to get used to the tonal and resonant differences, or you’ll have to do it yourself. I don’t know a third option. Videos or even sound files aren’t it. Sorry.
On the internet, anything can sound like anything. On a gig, a Les Paul and a 335 sound very different in tone, attack and responsiveness. One is a solid body with a compressing top, the other is a semi hollow. They are different category instruments really.
Tele-Meister
Tele-Meister
This is so well said and thought out. I agree completely, this is what happens theoretically. It directly comes from mankind's knowledge of vibrating bodies.
I also think the video is unintentionally misleading and missing key points (there are flaws), and I'd like to know what you think they are-- simply out of curiosity!
dreamingtele
Poster Extraordinaire
I do have one as well. I sold all and got a CS 335. Its a lot more liberating to just have one. You get to know the guitar fully and learn how to coax more sounds out of it
ReverseBiased
TDPRI Member
A Les Paul is a solid body guitar which these days have pickups and electronics focused on boosting the middle for Rock tones, as well as others. The Gibson ES 335 family are semi-holow boday guitars. They're built a little like the archtop of the ES 175, but the big block of maple in the center bottom absorbs certain vibrations, changing the entire tone. That's a start. By now you've probably learned all this. Both can make excellent blues guitars. BB King does not use F-holes in his Lucille model, probaby to reduce feedback.
Boreas
Doctor of Teleocity
Tele's are built like a table??
Sorry, I did not watch the video. I rarely watch "comparison" videos because there are too many variables, including ears and recording capabilities. If they did spectrographic analysis using very accurate microphones and equipment, and they came out the same or similar, I would say the two "instruments" simply had similar resonant frequencies and thus overtones. I doubt it is impossible to build two instruments that are constructed differently to "sound" essentially the same, but spectrographically be dissimilar. I am confident an acoustic engineer would be able to provide you with a much better answer.
Boreas
Doctor of Teleocity
Another variable that I don't believe has been brought up is how the body of the guitar reacts to the body of the player. Setting an acoustic guitar on a stand and playing it (like Pat Metheny) will produce more of a ringing tone than holding it naturally. I can't speak with experience, but I would suspect comparing an LP and a 335 using a stand may reveal even greater differences.On an acoustic guitar, tone can be perceptibly controlled by how you hold and squeeze/mute the body of the guitar. I would think a 335 would be similar in response - affecting acoustic overtones again.
