Why would a 335 sound different than a Les Paul?

[tfaux]

Identical attacks may sound similar or identical to a listener in front of an amp or video screen. So do a Martin and a Takamine. But there is a difference to the player. When I play the 335 I want to bring out the woody sweetness of tone a bit more; with a LP--or SG--I'm inclined to push the sustain a bit, and go for that intense smoothness. It's psychological and subjective, it has to do with my perception of the two guitars as much as their construction. But music is psychology. The guitars represent different things to me so I play them differently. The day it all becomes about engineering specs is the day to take me out back and shoot me.

 

[scottrandall]

My position on this and similar questions:

Not being able to explain the difference does not nullify an assertion that there is one.

I couldn't have said it better! If there's absolutely no measurable difference between a maple neck to and a rosewood neck, or 'tone woods' in solid body guitars - why do so many players perceive there do be? Not everything can be measured - at least with the current tools.

 

[brookdalebill]

A few tunes that really showcase great 335 tone, IMO are :
Louie Shelton on Diamond Girl
Glen Frey on I Can’t Tell You Why
BB King on (almost anything) The Thrill Is Gone
Larry Carlton (like BB) on Kid Charlemagne

It’s just my opinion, but 335 type guitars sound best, and most unique when played clean.

 

[THX1123]

First, choose the right question to ask and explore.

Then plug the two bloody guitars in direct and analyze and compare the signals and frequency responses. Plug the bloody guitars into the same amp and analyze the frequency responses. Mic the guitars unplugged and analyze the frequency responses. Hell, even better, put the exact same pickups and wiring in both guitars and then do all that. Document all this in detail.

Then do it all few more times.

Put the results in an easily digested format that shows the direct comparisons. Draw your conclusions. Then show it to other people. If other people think your methods were sound, and the results of the analysis of the two guitars are 95% the same or greater, well then you have proven your hypothesis and decades of electric guitar construction concepts, opinions, and preferences will be shown to be invalid.

 

[Bitoblues]

With regard to the relationship of sound/resonance to wood selection, a book about renowned stringed-instrument builder and picker Wayne Henderson and his one-at-a-time workshop is great reading. He builds his guitars on a first-come, first-served basis, and when a rep for Clapton showed up expecting his order to be expedited, he got a surprise.

Clapton's Guitar
By Allen St. John

Thanks for the recommendation - on it's way!

 

[regularslinky]

If there's absolutely no measurable difference between a maple neck to and a rosewood neck, or 'tone woods' in solid body guitars - why do so many players perceive there do be?

Because people hear with their eyes and their prior held beliefs. Every individual guitar sounds a bit different regardless of materials, and there are audible differences between types of pickups. But NOBODY can hear the difference between maple/rosewood or ash/mahogany in an amplified electric instrument. That's just silly.

 

[wildcatter]

From both a logical perspective and from my listening and playing experience, I don't believe these guitars have just about any tonal differences when plugged in, assuming the same pickups are used. A 335 after all has a big solid block of wood running down the middle. So even if there's a reason why hollow body guitars with pickups should sound different than solid bodies, a 335 isn't even hollow.

I mean, if strings stretched across two tables can sound like a telecaster, why wouldn't a 335 sound like a Les Paul?
See

If anyone believes that this is incorrect, can you please either record clips of you playing exactly the same with the same electronics, same settings, same pickups, on the two separate guitars and show how it sounds different? Or explain to me in a logical sense how having hollow wings tagged onto the side of a guitar could possibly impact the amplified sound. I mean it, I'm not trying to be a "prove me wrong" provocateur here. I genuinely want to know if there's something I'm missing for how hollow wings could affect the sound, and if I hear convincing audio or logical evidence, I will change my mind.

1)Not all of the 335's have the solid block, just an fyi. Kinda like the solid vs chambered LP, something you need to check
2)Something causes the feedback issues that the 335's are/were notorious for so those wings must have some effect on what the pickups pick up
3) Best I can tell the real main issue is where in the string vibration/wave form is the signal being taken from. That's where the difference between neck and bridge "tone" actually comes from. That's something that is so persnickety that even a fractional difference in the distance between the sensitive part of the pickup and the bridge/nut will have a definite difference in what goes down the signal chain.
4) A better comparison would probably be between a regular tele and a thinline tele since they have the same basic difference you are thinking about but have the same dimensions for pickup placements from the the anchor points (saddles and nut)
Probably doesn't help any, but that the best I have been able to figure out why those differences exist.
Cheers!

 

[Blues Twanger]

"The best refute to the above video is that it sounds like a particular guitar, not all guitars."

No not a refute - he happened to pick a Telecaster but could hav epicked any guitar type. The whole point of the video was that a Telecaster only sounds like a Telecaster because it is a Telecaster pickup, he gradually removes everything else from the equation. By the end of the video the rest of the guitar is absent, apart from pickup, bridge and tuners - and so pretty much nothing else matters! So therefore if he'd used a Les Paul pickup and no body/neck it would sound like a Les Paul, a Strat pickup would sound like a Strat, a Gretsch pickup sounds like a Gretsch etc. Sot if he tested all those they'd all sound like the "whole" guitars they came from.

That's a lot of words to repeat something than is inaccurate. Congrats.

How's this for a test, do strat pickups make a Les Paul sound like a Strat? No.

 

[wildcatter]

Because people hear with their eyes and their prior held beliefs. Every individual guitar sounds a bit different regardless of materials, and there are audible differences between types of pickups. But NOBODY can hear the difference between maple/rosewood or ash/mahogany in an amplified electric instrument. That's just silly.

Yes and no? I can tell the difference in the feel/release of my fingers depending on the type of fretboard used. Probably translates into I am still pressing down to hard since in theory you shouldn't really be pressing down so hard that you are pushing the string down into the fret board,but... (Pretty much everyone must be doing it wrong or you wouldn't have wear on the fretbord itself) While I don't really find the difference in "tone" that many people talk about with different fretboards, I sure can tell the difference in "feel" and/or how the string releases from beneath my fingertip depending on the material/finish of the fretboard. I suspect that differance in feel results in a differance in how you fret the string which would be perceived as a "tone" difference...

 

[wildcatter]

That's a lot of words to repeat something than is inaccurate. Congrats.

How's this for a test, do strat pickups make a Les Paul sound like a Strat? No.

Heck, I ended up with both an Epi Explorer and Flying V. Same year same same... Especially same stock pickups. No clue why the V sounds great and the Explorer through the same signal chain (Pick an amp, same cable, same cocked wah, same same same) sounds like crud. On paper they should be identical...

 

[msalama]

I think the OP went to get Jacko some more popcorn.

 

[johnnyASAT]

I think it’s a fun video but I think a major issue with the experiment is that you can’t fret any notes on the other “guitars.”

 

[ficelles]

I couldn't have said it better! If there's absolutely no measurable difference between a maple neck to and a rosewood neck, or 'tone woods' in solid body guitars - why do so many players perceive there do be? Not everything can be measured - at least with the current tools.

Not true - as has been repeated several times in this thread, there are multiple vibration analysis studies proving that the wood that pickups and strings are attached to affects string vibration at varying frequencies, and that different density woods affect vibration differently. The neck is the single most significant component of the guitar which affects string vibration as the neck itself vibrates more than any other part of the guitar. Density of the material is the key - different density woods will sound different.

 

[regularslinky]

Yes and no? I can tell the difference in the feel/release of my fingers depending on the type of fretboard used. Probably translates into I am still pressing down to hard since in theory you shouldn't really be pressing down so hard that you are pushing the string down into the fret board,but... (Pretty much everyone must be doing it wrong or you wouldn't have wear on the fretbord itself) While I don't really find the difference in "tone" that many people talk about with different fretboards, I sure can tell the difference in "feel" and/or how the string releases from beneath my fingertip depending on the material/finish of the fretboard. I suspect that differance in feel results in a differance in how you fret the string which would be perceived as a "tone" difference...

Agreed . I think I could feel the difference between rosewood and maple/ebony with my eyes closed. But there is no difference in sound.

 

[Beebe]

I have a Banjo with a PAF. Sounds just like a Les Paul

 

[Fmalitz]

From both a logical perspective and from my listening and playing experience, I don't believe these guitars have just about any tonal differences when plugged in, assuming the same pickups are used. A 335 after all has a big solid block of wood running down the middle. So even if there's a reason why hollow body guitars with pickups should sound different than solid bodies, a 335 isn't even hollow.

I mean, if strings stretched across two tables can sound like a telecaster, why wouldn't a 335 sound like a Les Paul?
See

If anyone believes that this is incorrect, can you please either record clips of you playing exactly the same with the same electronics, same settings, same pickups, on the two separate guitars and show how it sounds different? Or explain to me in a logical sense how having hollow wings tagged onto the side of a guitar could possibly impact the amplified sound. I mean it, I'm not trying to be a "prove me wrong" provocateur here. I genuinely want to know if there's something I'm missing for how hollow wings could affect the sound, and if I hear convincing audio or logical evidence, I will change my mind.

when I play any of my Gibson semi-solids, at a certain volume on stage, the entire guitar begins to vibrate. The sound becomes immediately much fuller than my Les Pauls, and you can milk it to hold the sustain as long as necessary.

But there's another benefit: when they vibrate against your body. You become one with the instrument and it's inspirational. I play much better. I have two very expensive Les Pauls that I never bring on stage any longer. there is simply too much difference.

I also have a custom, L5 that I had. I would block installed in the shutter like a semi solid. It's a 057 mine anyway. It's still sounds nothing like the 335 and nothing like the last part. It is so much about a bit. It's unusable on stage because of the feedback.

 

[willietheweirdo]

Take a Les Paul and a 335... remove the strings from the 335 and plug it in. Then strum the Les Paul and hold it over the 335's pickups. Which guitar does it sound like?!?

Now try it with a telecaster and a 335.

 

[GuitarRod]

From both a logical perspective and from my listening and playing experience, I don't believe these guitars have just about any tonal differences when plugged in, assuming the same pickups are used. A 335 after all has a big solid block of wood running down the middle. So even if there's a reason why hollow body guitars with pickups should sound different than solid bodies, a 335 isn't even hollow.

I mean, if strings stretched across two tables can sound like a telecaster, why wouldn't a 335 sound like a Les Paul?
See

If anyone believes that this is incorrect, can you please either record clips of you playing exactly the same with the same electronics, same settings, same pickups, on the two separate guitars and show how it sounds different? Or explain to me in a logical sense how having hollow wings tagged onto the side of a guitar could possibly impact the amplified sound. I mean it, I'm not trying to be a "prove me wrong" provocateur here. I genuinely want to know if there's something I'm missing for how hollow wings could affect the sound, and if I hear convincing audio or logical evidence, I will change my mind.

A Les Paul's a solidly built guitar whereas a 335 has a semi-hollow body w/a solid center block and hollowed sides; there may be very little differences as far as the pickups in both.

 

[SoK66]

No two Les Pauls sound alike, so why would a 335 sound like a Les Paul?

 

[Spider Dave]

@KokoTele my thoughts exactly. Ergonomics mentioned earlier, is a factor too. Like a real purdy lady, how a guitar feels or sits in your lap (if you're a chair player like me), generally aids in how you enjoy it, play it, bond with it, etc.

The guy in the OP's video commented on how surprised he was at how differently the lists were from each other. It felt a bit biased to me he didn't recognize the similarities. Perspective is fun! I like his table guitter, but would hard to hang on the wall or find a case for it though.

I think if you looked at this question around more micro-phonic or P-90 pickups. It might get you closer to what you're looking for since they seem more sensitive to the guitar than humbuckers. I think most would agree that a solid body has less feed back issues than a hollow body. And a semi-hollow with the center block, is somewhere in between-ish +/-. Is that not then a detectable relationship between the pickup and the guitar's construction?

Feedback's about a sound frequency loop between the pickups and speakers. Especially in the case of a hollow-body, the guitar's construction or design has an effect on this. If the pickups are contributing to the feedback with how the body is reacting to sound, then wouldn't it be safe to think that there's a 3-way relationship going on, affecting the tone too? Whether it's slight or substantial, if the pickups can be so dramatically effected by the guitar body's characteristics in a feedback situation, then why would the pickup's exclude the guitar's unplugged tonal qualities so completely?

I built a another Tele last summer. I got in a hurry and it ended up micro-phonic. I swapped bodies out of curiosity and it changed the tone considerably. I liked it SO much, I left it this way on purpose. I can get some really beautiful 'tones' and depth from it that I can't with my others.

I also think when it comes to electrics, if you want to capture the tones in question here, I think it's important having an amp or gear capable of doing so. Not just the guitar.

... please pass the popcorn.