Why is J Garcia stuff so difficult to play?

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Blue Bill, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    I'm personally being straight up and not weird.

    This is not some crazy theory invention. The concept is shared and used by hundreds of musicians, way beyond just guitar. It's been figured out by ear and in books, but books are not necessarily.

    Look, people like cycles or circles in our 12 tone system. Cycle of 3rds, cycle of 4ths, those two cycles are by far the most useful, this Coltrane move is no more than a cycle of Maj 3rds, but that makes it non diatonic and "out".

    here are our every day diatonic cycles,
    - except from The Advancing Guitarist,

    Cycle 2 - C D E F G A B C < scales
    Cycle 3 - C E G B D F A C < chords
    Cycle 4 - C F B E A D G C < progressions
    now things just go backwards,
    Cycle 5 - a backwards cycle 4
    Cycle 6 - a backwards cycle 3
    Cycle 7 - a backwards scale

    Cycling in major 3rds creates an interesting chromatic approach, one note shared two notes chromatic to the other two chords.

    . .C. . . . Ab. . . . E
    ----------------------------
    ---5----------4---------5
    ---5----------5---------4
    ---5----------6---------6
    ----------------------------
    ----------------------------

    It's all about the chromatic, Jerry touched on these sounds by ear, he could NOT explain it, he just felt it. Kimock saw this Jerry/Coltrane similarity and was able to relate it to his own playing and twenty years later shared it with the world over on the gear page over a span of around 10 years. Priceless lessons.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
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  2. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    So you said earlier. Thanks for reiterating. Ron Eschete has his own 12-tone system. He used to give my girlfriend guitar lessons. Always thought he looked like a cross between Martin Mull and John Astin. You think? Am I on to something?
     
  3. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    That sounds interesting, I dig Eschete, I have two rare books he put out in the 80s/90s. Larry Carlton had also developed a 12 note system but I don't know it. I worked through it but it didn't stick.
     
  4. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    I have a super rare 3 page booklet with writing on both sides, it's called Key Correlation by Ron Eschete 1978. I have not spent time with it. I acquired it when a few boxes were donated to the music store where I taught. The employees grabbed many of the gems but left behind all of REH's earliest publications. Books forgotten by time. Triadic Energy, Modes by Kato, Chord Confidence by Don Mock & Roger Hutchinson, etc,,,

    Could Key Correlation be the Eschete 12 tone system that you mentioned?
     
  5. brbadg

    brbadg Tele-Afflicted

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    This is actually not mixolydian.It's an E Major scale.

    solo starts at 1:40. I'm seeing E Major. There are some 6ths in the second pass.Also some chicken picking.

     
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  6. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Can't remember. He called it 12 point star, or something similar. Haven't seen Ron since Steemers in Fullerton, maybe 2005? I love his playing, but I can just hear that the notes are in the implied harmony of the changes, and I'd rather not worry about a system ... it's not that complex. I think whatever makes learning easier is good ... some folks are visually oriented, or spatially oriented, and like to make more math than I need. Whether following a modal model or tracking Tri-tone substitutions with diminished intervals over the altered chords, I just want to hear the harmony, the dissonance, the resolution, and the chordal tones. Going to or coming from tension/resolution, watch the totality of the Harmony, remember the Melody. I'm primitive I guess.
     
  7. brbadg

    brbadg Tele-Afflicted

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    Oh no,he definitely studied this ****.
     
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  8. brbadg

    brbadg Tele-Afflicted

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    Helps with the chicken pickin' I'll bet.Lot of banjo style rollin' too.
     
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  9. brbadg

    brbadg Tele-Afflicted

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    You all threw alot of stuff at the OP.Damn.
    It looks like he was just trying to learn the song.:)
     
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  10. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire

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    farley2.gif

    No, seriously, I am very much enjoying this discussion. It's a large download for me, but I'm trying to absorb it all. I do feel like I've stumbled down the rabbit hole...in a good way.

    br: Thanks for posting that video, nice example. It feels to me like it's based on E maj pent, but with a million other notes added. What's overwhelming is that every note sounds intentional and musical, tonally and rhythmically.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  11. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    No, don't stretch it out, switch between the three pents faster. No one wants to hear two bars of Ab pent over C7.

    This becomes an exercise in chromaticm. And I guess in order to make it work you need to really hear how people use it. Jerry is the person we're talking about, but there are many more.

    Pat Martino is the person I've checked the most aside from Kimock. Martino is so linear that his chromaticm really stands out and seems easy and logical more than "scrambled eggs" players. Plus Martino had his Corpus Callosum cut in half during a life saving surgery. Martino defied all odds and became a functional Pat once again. He had to learn everything, walk, talk, think. When he advanced to learning guitar again from ground zero he developed ways for his brain to bring together two thoughts. For example Pat must look at his playing in order for his brain to get the full picture. His way of relearning theory was absolutely unique. He wrote much of this down and once again his eyes play a huge role in full brain communication. He put out a rare book called The Nature Of Music to share some of his abstract yet logical musical designs. Think of the circle of 5ths a design, Martino expanded on circle designs like crazy, and it worked, he got his deep understanding,,, and then some. I had to get my hands on a copy and I found one in great shape.

    Here is an excerpt from it, does it make sense to you?
    https://images.app.goo.gl/Y74Eo6gk2gQqRCWdA
     
  12. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    Jerry found his own path to useful "out"

    It was probably pretty easy for him since he just played his thoughts.
     
  13. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    This sort of major based song made for the bulk of the Dead's show, this was probably a first set song. But it was not the sort of tune that they would jam for 20 minutes on the SF psychedelic excursions that has been their show's highlight since their beginning. Faux jazz excursions, or jazz jams using rock.
     
  14. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    I know people that were already good and they studied theory out of curiosity. I know mediocre people that are just curious about advanced things without being all that influenced by it, they sound like they sound.

    It would be a shame if someone sold their soul to sound like Jerry, or Jimi, or EVH and never discover the beauty in their own voice. And man, those crossroads are crowded.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  15. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    .
     
  16. ndcaster

    ndcaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    sure, it makes sense

    you might be interested in this little book:

    59769324-0483-468A-A011-9A58D0951731.jpeg

    this should look familiar:

    2AF7D52E-A746-457D-AFC6-DCE075CA4263.jpeg

    here are some figures drawn by pendulums linked together in various familiar musical ratios:

    D62BFB90-1AFF-4F93-B6C6-3942C82CA8FA.jpeg
     
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  17. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    This is a great example of Kimock using this Coltrane "out" idea. At 7:40 is where he starts playing with it. Before that it's mostly all inside.

    Mind you, he's not a slave to Coltrane, he can blend it in so well with inside playing you almost don't realize it's being used.

     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
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  18. brbadg

    brbadg Tele-Afflicted

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    It is also the song the OP was trying to learn!;)
     
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  19. Telecentric

    Telecentric Tele-Meister

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    ^^^ The Stich method videos are a great place to start. So much good info.
     
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  20. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire

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    We played Brown Eyed Woman a couple times, it was a little rough, but people seem to like it. I played a note-for-note solo I learned from a tutorial vid. I still sound like me, not Jerry, when I improvise, drat.

    Thanks again for the comments.
     
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