Why is J Garcia stuff so difficult to play?

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by Blue Bill, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Experience is the best teacher. No one ever learned anything from doing something right.
     
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  2. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    Lots of talk about using all 12 notes.

    Back to Kimock and Coltrane, to play all 12 tones and have the sound "flow" or have logical "out/in" moves throughout.

    This is what Kimock showed me about using Coltrane for rock.

    If your playing in a Dead jam over a C7 chord for 45 minutes, try this for space jam relief.

    Use C major pent, Ab major pent, & E major pents in that order, C Ab E
    Also play plenty of C minor blues licks along with the Coltrane pents.

    C7 do you see the three pents plus the G blues scale? It's all in this line,
    ------8-11- 8-------------------------------------------------
    -11-------------9------11-9---------------------------------
    ---------------------10---------9-----11-10-8-9----------
    -------------------------------------11----------------10-9-8
    -------------------------------------------------------------------
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    This is an excellent, clever, and simple way to play classy "out" lines. I'm so glad Coltrane came up with the idea and I'm so glad Kimock showed it to me as it pertains to rock.

    Invent new lines using these three pents, write out dozens of them.

    Put a dash of this out idea in your already existing Jerry playing, it can take you to a whole new soundscape, watch how the band responds.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2019
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  3. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire

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    Strat, you may be right. It's not so much that I think knowing theory makes one a better player, it's that I hope it does, because I can learn more theory. If that won't help me play better, then I may be screwed; if the only way to become a self-respecting Jerry-wanna-be is to spend the 10,000 hours. Let's see, 2 hours a day, I'll be 75!

    Listening to some of his solos, each one unique and done on the fly, I gotta disagree a little, when you say he couldn't play what he heard in his mind.


    ND, I agree some stuff sounds decidedly experimental. Trying to learn some of his stuff, I've run into the flat fifth constantly, he finds really interesting ways to incorporate that diminished 7 sound; whether he knows what it's called it or not.
     
  4. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    Many great players have studied music theory. Fact. They don't play good because they studied theory, they studied theory because they wanted to learn things to help them play well, along with all the other skills required: ear training, exercises (scales and patterns with a metronome), etc.

    Players serious about learning to play better often (but not always) study theory. They already are determined to practice hard and get better. That's why they get better.

    There is no possible way for either of us to be absolutely certain that Jerry Garcia ever was playing what exactly was in his head. I think he was trying, for sure.
     
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  5. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire

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    Kat, Sounds easy when you say it. o_O

    If I'm correct, that includes every note, except the minor 2 and flat 5, C# and F#. But wait, C# is the blue note in the G min blues scale, so add that too. But wait, isn't F# the flat 5 in C major? Which, as we've been discussing, JG used constantly. So add that too? This is where I'm stuck. I have no vocabulary of licks that use 12 notes per octave. Smoothly alternating from C maj pent, to Ab maj pent, to E maj pent, in the same position on the neck, while throwing in G minor pent and C minor blues notes, while keeping the chord tones in the mix, yikes, is it even possible? Very intimidating for me at this point.:eek:
     
  6. Blue Bill

    Blue Bill Poster Extraordinaire

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    No argument. I've been watching interviews of guys who played with JG (instead of practicing), men like Bruce Hornsby, Branford Marsalis, Bela Fleck, etc. They all indicate that he was very technically responsive to whatever they did, and very serious about playing well. That's what makes me think he probably studied plenty of theory.
     
  7. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    But pents have to be the easiest scale to play because there are no avoid notes. Make them go the other direction, it's all good. Besides in Jerry kind of playing you just throw in a few of these notes and then go back into regular playing.

    All 12 notes are in these 3 pents,
    C D E G A
    Ab Bb C Eb F
    E F# G# B C#
     
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  8. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    So, that's nice.
     
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  9. Bob L

    Bob L Tele-Meister

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    ASATKat - unless I'm missing something, your first four notes are C minor pent. Could you please clarify?
     
  10. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    This is where these Coltrane pents come from, >>the circle of 4ths/5ths<<

    the band is jamming on a static C7

    The Coltrane Giant Steps triangle,
    . . . . . . . .C
    . . . . . F. . . . .G
    . . . Bb. . . . . . . D
    . . Eb. . . . . . . . . A
    . . Ab/G#. . . . . .E
    . . . Db/C# . . . B
    . . . . . ..Gb/F#


    C major pent C D E G A
    Ab Maj pent Ab Bb C Eb F
    E major pent E F# A B C#
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2019
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  11. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    Oh, I see what you're asking

    This is rock not Giant Steps, so to make it work with rock use plenty of C minor pent and C minor blues, along with the Coltrane thing. The Coltrane thing is just a spice added to the C minor pent. C minor pent is like the glue that holds it together for the rock feel.
     
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  12. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    I'm not crazy about "One weird trick that'll make your pentatonic solos sound like something." If you are into Coltrane, transcribe some of his solos note for note and learn them. Then, you will learn something ... how a genius phrases a solo.
     
  13. muudcat

    muudcat Tele-Holic Silver Supporter

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    maybe amputate a finger:)
     
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  14. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    Bang Zoom, right over your head.

    Back at you with "weird".
     
  15. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    So, that's nice!
     
  16. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    It's honest. I'm guilty of being nice, I did my best to share this with the community. Sharing is nice.

    BE nice!!
     
  17. ndcaster

    ndcaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    so if I'm understanding this correckltly

    if we have four bars of C7: we should play say two bars of Cmaj pent, one bar of Abmaj pent, and one bar of Emaj pent?

    can't I just play Cmaj pent, bend stuff to get the minor thirds and whatnot, and throw in a little suspension as an ornament to sound hippy happy and call it a day?
     
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  18. strat a various

    strat a various Friend of Leo's

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    I started my comment with "I'm not crazy..." That should pretty much cover that. I at no time denied being weird. Separate issue.
     
  19. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    All 12 notes are there, enharmonic equivalents
     
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  20. ASATKat

    ASATKat Friend of Leo's

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    C maj pent has no maj7th interval
    1 2 3 5 6
     
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