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Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by Telephonist, Jun 16, 2019.
Agreeing to disagree is a pretty good example of subjectivity.
I am aware this matter is subjective, because it is. I am not saying sampling with a sampler or daw is not sampling. I am not saying that sampling is stealing, assuming you get the permission to use the material. To myself and alot of people my age, using someone else's music is sampling, regardless of the medium with which you sample, because you are using someone else's work. If you want to have your own narrow standards for what constitutes a sample of someone else's work, based on hip hop culture, more power to you. That is not going to change how I feel about the matter. For what it is worth, I am on a few hip hop crate diggers groups, in which almost everyone is a hip hop producer. The music used to make old school hip hop would get referred to as "samples," even though digital samplers were not used at that point, because the principle of using prerecorded music in a new composition would be the same. If someone was to say in response to someone asking what sample was used on this song, "oh no man, there is no sample used because samplers weren't commercially availible to most people at this time," people in the group would think that was unusual considering we know they used portions of another groups musical recordings to make this record. https://www.whosampled.com/Grandmas...-of-Grandmaster-Flash-on-the-Wheels-of-Steel/
No one seemed to mind when Queen and David Bowie sampled the bass line from Vanilla Ice's "Ice Ice Baby".
Beautiful amp, I want to try some of these larger brown amps so bad... I'm really jonesing to try a Concert. The whole 4x10 thing is always exciting to me.
I love my Vibroverb, but it is only a Reissue. I can't remember actually ever hearing a real, vintage brown/blond amp in person. Isn't that sad?
(and you did miss the fourth topic within this thread, global warming)
Brownface concerts seem to be the least expensive model generally, perhaps due to weight?. I found mine for $1,800 but it had a non original transformer ( no biggie to me). They really are wonderful sounding amps.
I’ll edit my post to include Global Warming
Maybe Global Warming is the real reason Fender doesn't reissue any more brownface amps - they're guarding the world from being exposed to too much of that "warm" brownface sound...
Interesting choice of words, considering those attenuators had the tendency to get a little too warm.
I think you may be on to something here...... in my efforts to save the world, you can safely dispose of those planet-wrecking amps at my house. AOC and Bernie will thank you!!
This thread has it all...but needs more pics.
Oh, yeah! the 3 X 10 Bandmaster! i would love to hear one of those. I've only seen pictures...
The problem I have encountered, is that for some Brownface models, there are few chassis out there. If someone IS building a Tremolux, Vibrolux or Vibroverb, they probably had to buy a hundred chassis to make it worth the chassis builder's time and effort. And there just doesn't seem to be enough demand for any one builder to make that kind of investment. Trust me. I am very frustrated over it ...
I began my guitar life playing my older brother's new 1960 Jazzmaster through his brand new 1960 PRO amp. I stole that rig whenever I could and eventually bought my own amp, a brand new 1964 Super Reverb, which I still have ... along with a 1966 Super Reverb and a 1967 Showman ... all good amps. But my "head hearing" keeps going back to that 1960 PRO. In my neck of the woods (northeast Florida), there have been few tweeds and few brownfaces floating around the neighborhoods; so the opportunity to buy has been non-existent until the Interwebs emerged. But raising a family prevented purchasing a Brownface model, of which there were many built.
I think perhaps Fender was doing then, what they are doing now: mistakenly making "new and exciting," regardless of how great an older model sounded. But then, we are the beneficiaries (dough, not withstanding), as we get to choose from a bunch of different vintage models and a bunch of different sounds. Don't know if I will ever nail a Brownface or not, but I love their warmth, thickness and sweet midrange quite a bit, so I sure hope I do, before I leave this planet ... Glad there are others out there who appreciate them as I do.
I have brownfaces, Blackfaces and late tweeds. I can get them all to sound pretty much exactly alike.
Too much is made of the cosmetic era - from the ‘57 5F6 Bassman to the 1968 Twin Reverb, we are kind of talking about similar amps. That is, the similarities are far greater than the differences.
Now there are exceptions to what I’m about to say but I don’t think the brownfaces have the magic “sparkle” and “chime” of late tweeds or later Blackface amps.
Set the controls flat on a tweed Bassman or a Blackface Deluxe on the normal channel, and you have a very usable channel and PLENTY of room to dial in some high end.
Set controls flat on a Brown 6G series amp and it’s dark. No sparkle. Then add in the funky mid and treble tap control and it’s hard to dial in a sound that doesn’t have too much mids and not enough treble.
The brightened the Vibroverb reissue considerably - a 350pf treble cap over a 250pf.
That said I love a Brownface. I love the looks. I love how they are a bit different. BUT - were I a famous musician, I don’t think my Brownface amp would be the one that would cut it in the studio or live - I’d bet that Blackface that sounds a bit piercing in the rehearsal room would sit just right in a mix.
As for reverb, there’s pedals now that sound really good and are very tweakable - the need for a complicated, tone sucking, ONE KNOB reverb with a set tone and settings, is becoming passe whether we like it or not. Have you HEARD a Stymon Flint? A Topanga Reverb?
Really, Fender is reissuing the Brown Princeton which is, circuit wise, a tweed Vibrolux 5F11.
Too much is said about the Brown Deluxe online - it’s raw, it’s gainy, it’s a perfect small amp circuit on paper, but doesn’t sound as chimey or goeey or responsive as a 5E3.
I think the 6G4-A Super is the best Brownface. The harmonic vibrato gets lots of press but really, it’s just okay - and like I said, there’s pedals that can do it just as well and not drag the gain down in the vibrato channel down, as it does on all those amps on into the Blackface era with the roach style tremolo.
The argument for a 5F6-A head with switchable negative feedback, a cathode/fix bias switch, multi-tap OT, and able to run American or British 8 pin tubes, all into a mix of speaker cabs with all kinds of your favorite speakers would really end all discussions about amps - that’s all anyone would ever need. That circuit just makes sense. You can dial in any tone and more highs and lows than you can ever need and you can dial them out too.
My one two favs
The old "brownies" were a lot like the old "mesas" but with a tad less treble think James Brown.
Kinda depends where you set the Presence, doesn't it?
As noted, with controls set “flat” at 5, the Presence isn’t adding any sparkle. At 8.5 out of 10 you can get some “bite”, but it’s not “sparkle”. That doesn’t leave much room, if any, to add more if - for example - you aren’t playing a Tele or have a dark overdrive or delay pedal.
On a ‘59 tweed Bassman you can set the controls flat and get sparkle, and have pleennnnty of room to add more.
It’s all subjective. I’m attempting to explain the lack of popularity of Brownfaces as back line amps or recording amps.
They lack the sparkle inherent in Blackfaces and yes, larger tweeds. A 5E5/7/8 sparkles - the 5F6/8 sparkle too.
Still plenty of great recordings made with them. The list is huge. But if one is looking for sparkle - minus a JBL producing it - it’s not what the brownfaces do.
Very mid forward with an attenuated high end. Plenty of lows too. Just not as many highs. With the tapped treble control, you can’t add treble without adding even MORE mids.
Still, love my ‘61 Super, but it is what it is.