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Where to get Nitro Spray Cans? LPB

Discussion in 'Finely Finished' started by Tele Dad, Nov 4, 2020.

  1. 61fury

    61fury Friend of Leo's

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    I used that for my Affinity Tele after I botched my can of Reranch LPB. My first refin so it's not great but I like it. I've used Duplicolor for all my projects. Now I'm trying Automotive Touchup paint which seems to be acrylic lacquer also.
    AFFINDOTS SIDE.jpg

    Hmm, maybe it's the light but they don't seem to be the same color, maybe mine was GM medium blue
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2020
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  2. Varmonter

    Varmonter TDPRI Member

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    I find reranch is hit or miss. Just have to keep trying. I think they post that compressor thing when they get too many orders so they can catch up.
    They're a small outfit. I got my lpb
    From them as well.
     

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  3. Wyatt

    Wyatt Tele-Afflicted

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    Well, purely for academic argument, since we are going off on a tangent anyway... what about other water-based lacquers?

    I thought in Leo's day, Lake Placid Blue and most of the metallic custom colors (plus Olympic White) were Lucite brand acrylic lacquer.

    I do agree that for LPB over Sunburst, with some wear to let the SB through, I would go nitro, but I not sure I would rely on a rattle-can nozzle for anything involving metallic powder/flake.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  4. stratisfied

    stratisfied Tele-Holic

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    Acrylic lacquers are not water based. The solids (acrylic plastic) are dissolved in lacquer thinner the same way that nitrocellulose fiber is in nitrocellulose lacquer. You are confusing Acrylic Lacquer with water-borne polyurethanes and acrylics now in vogue in the automobile refinishing industry.

    Acrylic lacquer is indistinguishable from nitrocellulose lacquer from a spraying, sanding and buffing standpoint. It is less fragile than nitrocellulose lacquer, less prone to crack and has superior UV light resistance resulting in a finish that does not yellow or fade as rapidly. This is why the automakers abandoned nitrocellulose based lacquers for acrylic lacquer finishes in the 60's. They would still be in commercial use were it not for EPA restrictions on VOCs (the solvents in Acrylic lacquers) Obviously, if they were water based as you say, the EPA would not have legislated them out of favor.

    I have finished numerous guitars, cars and motorcycles with Acrylic Lacquer Duplicolor products and the results have displayed flawless, factory-applied appearances when properly applied and finished. Chemical removal is the same as Nitrocellulose. The stripper dissolves the acrylic binder the same as the nitrocellulose fiber.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
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  5. mojavedesert

    mojavedesert Tele-Meister

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  6. mojavedesert

    mojavedesert Tele-Meister

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    I give up! They're different, that's my point. only, I'm not a chemist. I think I failed organic chemistry in college. Then I went to art school, I like art, music, I'm a late sleeper and I have bad work ethic.I make my money as a artist, a painter, I'm probably gay too. I'm a drunk for sure. Don't listen to anything I say. Sorry keep painting your guitar the way you want to.
     
  7. Varmonter

    Varmonter TDPRI Member

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    Tone is important. There is this mystique around nitro. The way it drys.
    Its brittleness.
    There may be many similarities chemically. Between acrylic and nitro.Mostly around the solvent used..But there are the many differences
    As well. Mojo not withstanding.
    There have been many changes in coatings over the years..mostly around
    VOC and other safety concerns.
    Some for the good in terms of longevity
    And application. Most changes involving
    Health and safety have been deleterious
    to quality .. but these compromises should be made.
    I'll make the point using guitar pic material. Many plastics, cellulose, even metal and wood. All involving what musicians "feel" impacts tone.
    One can buy 100 cellulose fender mediums for 30 bucks. Or 30 bucks
    For one Casein (milk protein formaldehyde process) pick.
    And then there is Vesple. All plastics.
     
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2020
  8. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    Be VERY careful with Stewmac's...and Deft's " lacquer".

    Both contain naphtha and.or alkyd resin - oil based paint resin - and are "lacquer enamels with VERY slow dry times. Lacquers - except specialty catalyzed products - dry ONLY by evaporation or solvents and other volatiles - there is NO CURE TIME!

    Nonsense. Duplicolor's finish colors are acrylic lacquer, which is not only fully compatible with nitrocellulose lacquer but many products are a blend of the two - the acrylic resin is used to improve flexibility and impact resistance (I used to perform lab tests on manufactured batches of lacquers).

    When I have a small job to do I sometimes use Duplicolor aerosols myself. It can take less time than eye-matching a custom tint of a color, setting up one of my HVLP's, spraying, and cleaning the machine...plus inevitably ending up with some leftover waste material!

    It also takes clear coats beautifully - with careful spraying and lots of practice (ALWAYS practice spraying on scrap to perfect your technique - don't learn on your guitar. If you mess up it can get expensive stripping and starting over!) you can lay on clear coats (thinly - ALWAYS spray transparent coats or 3 even more transparent passes each - the material will flow out as it builds and melts into itself) with hardly any orange peel. It will buff right out with absolutely NO finish sanding!
     
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  9. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    1. Duplicolor is not "water based"

    2. Acrylic lacquer is not "water based"

    3. Only specialty lacquers sold in bulk to the production trades (shutters, furniture etc) are "water based". They are hard to find, and most sellers are manufacturers that only sell direct - and will not sell to the retail trade.

    They are also normally packaged in aerosols only for distribution to product installers for touch up use.

    If one of my reps had sold water based lacquer to a retail customer I probably would have fired him! :lol:
     
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  10. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    Actually, only the resins and a few additives are different. As mentioned earlier, many lacquers are BLENDS of nitrocellulose and acrylic resins. When applied over each other they blend together just like they blend into themselves, creating ONE coat of lacquer finish.

    You can't PRY the coats apart because they are not separated by anything - they are a single, contiguous film!
     
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  11. mojavedesert

    mojavedesert Tele-Meister

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    I should leave this topic alone, since by trial and error I have made up my own mind a long time ago. Except for the fun of it. I can tell you. I live in the desert, it's hot as hell here, it windy, dry, then wet, then cold, then hot the next day, only hot or cold, the sun it never lets up, never let's you rest. Most things die. That why it's a desert. For painted materials it's the same. If you paint your house with 10 year Glidden or Behr, Williams, paint or whatever primo brand. In 3 yrs you have to paint your house again. Wood unpainted, cracks, warps, disintegrates way faster than you expect. A new piece of wood left out side, in a season, it looks like it came from the "High Plains Drifter" movie set or some old rockstar's face, or my face, it looks like hell. Leave a 5 gallon paint bucket in the sun for a few months and try to pick it up and the handle comes off in your hand with the whole top of the container. With this idea in mind, I can also tell you I put this harsh weather to use. I have an old board outside, I paint artists paint on it. I leave it outside next to my art studio. I paint oil paint by the brand to find out which paint is actually light-fast. The bad paint fades, changes color pretty quickly. Despite what the label claims, the high cost, fancy packaging. The paint in the nature and elements tells it's own story about how it's made, and true or false claims. On that same board I also paint lacquers, nitro, some are my own mixtures, even some French polish for uprightbass mixtures, to see how they weather. I also painted that Duplicolor there on that board. I used the red, the off-white, some other color that I could go back and look to see what the color was... if any of that color was still there. Because, you might have guess what I am going to say, or not. That paint curled up like a piece of bacon and blew away! It's not like other nitrocellulose, the nitro I paint there, many samples I painted there, are still there, they look ok, season after season. Some of it chips off but most of the color is still there. Rattle can nitro is good paint, I can see for myself. Even Rustoleum lacquer is good paint. Duplicolor is not the same thing. I've been painting paint on that board for about 18 years. Before that I had a similar board on the roof of my studio in nyc for 20 years, not the same board, snow and pollution was the determining factor on the east coast. Farmer-style safety color enamel in linseed oil is good paint, worth every penny, I would never paint that on a guitar.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2020
  12. GeminiCG

    GeminiCG Tele-Meister

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    I think he means like the Fender Custom Shop relics where it is a color (LPB in this case) over a 2 or 3 tone burst. Usually the top color is aged to show the burst underneath and further (wood). This is the only case where I see a solid color over a burst of some sort.

    Edit: I just realized that he clarified that for you with a picture. Disregard this response.
     
  13. Silverface

    Silverface Poster Extraordinaire Platinum Supporter

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    Neither nitrocellulose nor acrylic lacquers are formulated to be applied to an old, weathered board in an exterior environment with temperature swings. It's also a completely invalid surface and environment for comparing coatings to be used on guitars - unless you make them out of old, weathered wood and leave them outside.:lol:

    Regardless - were you applying multiple light coats in a series of lighter passes, or full coverage coats in single passes? What were the temperature and humidity during application of each? What was the moisture content of the board Moisture content should be checked (with a $20 moisture meter) every time you apply lacquer to exterior wood (and guitar wood if the source is unknown or storage questionable) - followed by application of a lacquer primer or sanding sealer, and a grain filler on open-grained wood.

    If the wood is too dry, the temperature too high, humidity too low, spray nozzle distance to wood excessive or full coverage coats applied adhesion of any lacquer - which dries by evaporation - is a crapshoot. In dry/hot/low humidity situations Colortone, Deft and a few other lacquer enamels (which contain both lacquer and alkyd - oil based paint - resins, which dry in hours (or longer) may penetrate and adhere better than nitrocelllose or acrylic lacquers, which dry in minutes.

    That's because it's not nitrocellulose. It's acrylic lacquer. But the curling up could be due to any of a dozen or more variables and differences from your nitrocellulose application, some noted above.

    Lacquer is technically not "paint" - and it can't be applied like paint, so it's very important to understand the difference between "paint" (like enamel) and "lacquer" (like nitrocellulose, acrylic - and blends of the two - many "nitrocellulose" lacquers contain acrylic resin as well for improved impact resistance, flexibility and tolerance to temperature swings. Acrylic resin does not have to be listed on an MSDS because it's not a hazardous material - although a few manufacturers will list it anyway.

    Nitrocellulose MUST be listed on the MSDS, as it IS a hazardous material.

    And gee whiz - there's no nitrocellulose resin in Rust-Oleum lacquer. Because that product you like so much and works with your test methods and environment...and on that old, weathered board...is an acrylic lacquer.:confused:

    And even better - Duplicolor "Acrylic Lacquer" is approximately a 50/50 blend of nitrocellulose and acrylic resins. :eek:

    You might take the time to read MSDS sheets so you know what you are talking about regarding product types.

    And use realistic surfaces and environments - with precise application and other details - because your old weathered board is completely irrelevant in a guitar forum.

    And you apparently don't understand what raw materials are contained in coatings, as you're praising acrylic products you don't like generically and dissing one that's half nitrocellulose - which you DO like.
     
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  14. Viejo

    Viejo Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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  15. Boreas

    Boreas Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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  16. mojavedesert

    mojavedesert Tele-Meister

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    Good bye in AOL voice
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2020
  17. SacDAve

    SacDAve Poster Extraordinaire

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