1. Win a Broadcaster or one of 3 Teles! The annual Supporting Member Giveaway is on. To enter Click Here. To see all the prizes and full details Click Here. To view the thread about the giveaway Click Here.

When 'R&B' meant Rhythm and Blues

Discussion in 'Music to Your Ears' started by tintag27, Apr 14, 2021.

  1. tintag27

    tintag27 Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    2,669
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Location:
    Old England
    Sugar Pie DeSanto - Soulful Dress
     
  2. hemingway

    hemingway Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    8,135
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2012
    Location:
    London, UK
    I have sometimes wondered if kids who like what's now called R&B even know what it stands for. Not in a sneery way. I've just wondered.
     
  3. tintag27

    tintag27 Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    2,669
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Location:
    Old England
    We live in an age of 'sampling', 'mash-ups', 'reimaginings', 'channeling'...
    in another age we would just say 'I stole this bit!'

    Bonus track
     
  4. VintageSG

    VintageSG Friend of Leo's Ad Free Member

    Posts:
    4,497
    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2016
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    'I got my sneakers workin', but they jus' don't work on you'
    '...gonna get me a mojo hat'

    It does pass the first test though, it makes me want to tap my toes, pick up a guitar and comp along.
     
    tintag27 likes this.
  5. Jim W

    Jim W Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    2,495
    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2003
    That is a great album!
     
    tintag27 likes this.
  6. tintag27

    tintag27 Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    2,669
    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2010
    Location:
    Old England
    I have the Chess 50th anniversary Collection and it covers a lot of country from Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf, to Fontella Bass and The Ramsey Lewis Trio.
    The recordings are so authentic it's like the band just got out of a van and set up their kit in your front room!
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2021
    Jim W, VintageSG and Greggorios like this.
  7. MojoTrwall

    MojoTrwall Tele-Holic

    Age:
    26
    Posts:
    713
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Location:
    Paris
    Funny, because in other age I can give you enough example showing that what you're saying is false.

    I'm pretty sure it didn't bother you up a piece when it was Led Zeppelin and other Brits band ripping off without any credits which was indeed stealing, compared to propre sampling where you got to give credits and royalties, or you'll end up getting sued, kinda like these classic rock band ending up in legal settlement or in front of court.

    Regarding in other age, there's plenty of example even in classic music, such as God Save the Queen and Lully with Haendel, or La Marseillaise being used in Tchaykovsy's 1812 the last being a perfect example of what would be a sample.

    Regarding R&B, Hoochie Coochie Man - I'm a man - Mannish Boy is the perfect example of the same whatever you call it.
     
  8. Dan German

    Dan German Doctor of Teleocity

    Posts:
    11,440
    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2008
    Location:
    Left of the Left Coast
    I can see why he went with “Tommy Tucker.” “Robert Higgenbotham” is the least R&B name ever. :D
     
    tintag27 and Cadillac_Mike like this.
  9. beyer160

    beyer160 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,398
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Location:
    On Location
    Oh yeah, that's what it stood for before it became "Repetitive and Boring".


    I'm so tired of this false equivalence.

    Sure a bunch of bands 50 years ago ripped off blues songs. You can't really compare that with the lazy cut-and-paste that passes for modern "sampling".
     
    SRHmusic and Pcs264 like this.
  10. MojoTrwall

    MojoTrwall Tele-Holic

    Age:
    26
    Posts:
    713
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Location:
    Paris
    False equivalence because you decided it was.

    It's not just about blues song by the way

    I'll keep jury and court rules as true evidence if you don't mind.
     
  11. JRapp

    JRapp Tele-Holic

    Age:
    63
    Posts:
    729
    Joined:
    May 20, 2019
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
     
    dougstrum and tintag27 like this.
  12. JRapp

    JRapp Tele-Holic

    Age:
    63
    Posts:
    729
    Joined:
    May 20, 2019
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
     
    dougstrum and tintag27 like this.
  13. JRapp

    JRapp Tele-Holic

    Age:
    63
    Posts:
    729
    Joined:
    May 20, 2019
    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
     
  14. beyer160

    beyer160 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,398
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Location:
    On Location
    Not at all. Your comparison is a literal example of the logical fallacy "false equivalence", which is defined thusly:

    You attempted to draw equivalence between musicians taking songwriting credit for songs they did not write, with music created by way of cutting and pasting recordings created by others. One has nothing to do with the other- indeed, as you pointed out, most "samples" these days are licensed.

    OK, fine. What difference does that make?

    "Jury and court rules" about what? And what difference does it make? Sure, some famous people got busted ripping off songs. This has nothing to do with the current fashion of music being created by cannibalizing actual recordings of other, generally superior artists to create dreck.
     
    SRHmusic likes this.
  15. guitar_paul1

    guitar_paul1 Tele-Meister

    Posts:
    152
    Joined:
    May 29, 2003
    Location:
    washington state
    tintag27 and JRapp like this.
  16. MojoTrwall

    MojoTrwall Tele-Holic

    Age:
    26
    Posts:
    713
    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Location:
    Paris
    My point has nothing to do with the creativity process, but the copyright process, since we'retalking about stealing, as it was mentionned in the op 3rd post.

    Since stealing, is the illegitimate acquisition of a right, the equivalent is perfectly clear, two differents means, regarding one end.

    You're making a confusion between means and end there. Sampling, or taking credit, and the purpose, illegitimate acquisition of a right.

    Regarding the definition of stealing music, the meaning don't matter, since they're protected by copyright in either way of the harmonisation, and true essence of music, or the material itself, the recording.

    As you mentionned, if samples are licensed, by nature they're not stealing. On the other hand taking songwriting credit for something you did not, is stealing, or IOW illegitimate acquisition of a right.

    By the way sampling is not soly based on cutting and pasting, if you think so, it means that you missed the whole process.

    But this has to do with the proper definition of stealing, since you seems to be close to definition I summed the legal definition of stealing in the beginning of my post.
     
  17. beyer160

    beyer160 Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    4,398
    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2010
    Location:
    On Location
    You can dance around it all you want, but Led Zeppelin and the Beach Boys never took a razor blade and spliced Howlin' Wolf or Chuck Berry records into their master tapes.

    I actually know quite a bit about the technical processes involved in both "sampling" and actual audio recording. Tell you what- cut up a bunch of other peoples' songs in your DAW and regurgitate it into a "beat", then book a day of studio time with musicians and cut a track of your own. Maybe then you'll see what I'm talking about. None of today's hit "producers" would have lasted 5 minutes at Motown or Atlantic.
     
  18. archetype

    archetype Fiend of Leo's

    Posts:
    5,876
    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2005
    Location:
    Williamsville NY
    I really, really dig R&B in its original forms. I like to play old school 50s and 60s R&B, and 60s and very early 70s soul and funk.

    Most of it I play straight and some of it I play like trashy garage rock. With the latter, I work at playing it with precision. Old school R&B, soul, and funk was written to be played with precision: the beat is the beat, an eighth note is exactly an eighth note, etc. The songs fall apart if you don't play them that way, no matter how loose and trashy the tone and delivery.
     
  19. EsquireOK

    EsquireOK Poster Extraordinaire

    Posts:
    5,262
    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2011
    Location:
    U.S.A.
    "R&B" was (and still is, to a large degree) simply a euphemism for "race music." It's not literally and strictly "rhythm and blues," and never has been. It means, basically, any music that is largely marketed toward an African-American audience. It's not a genre, so to speak; it's an intended audience. It doesn't sound like what it used to sound like, just like rock-n-roll doesn't. It doesn't mean that the names don't apply.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2021
  20. Cadillac_Mike

    Cadillac_Mike Tele-Meister

    Age:
    32
    Posts:
    359
    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2021
    Location:
    River Falls, WI
    55vzpa.jpg
     
    tintag27 and hemingway like this.
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.