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When does it stop being the same guitar?

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by fretWalkr, Aug 20, 2020.

  1. jvin248

    jvin248 Doctor of Teleocity

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    .

    That rock 'n roll feller that sold his black Strat for $2-million-US-dollars ... apparently had had three necks and maybe two bodies on it.
    So what exactly did the buyer get? A guitar played by a famous rock 'n roller.

    .
     
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  2. Blazer

    Blazer Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Ask Brad Gillis...
    [​IMG]
    This is Gillis' main guitar, which started off as a 1962 stratocaster. He basically replaced everything, including the body, there are NO remaining original parts but as far as he's concerned it still is a 1962 strat.
     
  3. Brett Valentine

    Brett Valentine Tele-Meister

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    Wow, deep stuff. . . okay, please bear with me. . .

    Every cell in our bodies are replaced after 7 years. . . are we the same?

    The only original things left on my Tele are the neck, body, and the volume pot, and tone pot and cap (both modified). It's not what it was, but it is markedly better that it originally was. . . closer to my "ideal" for that guitar. What it was was becoming what it is, and so it's current identity seems more. . .what? . . .important? weighty? significant? I don't know, but it's current configuration sticks with me, and draws me,and I judge every Tele I get to play against this one as my standard. The parts and the changes go into making up it's "personality," or it's "soul." I'm starting to sound metaphysical about this, but when I play whatever guitar I have in my hands, it is the "voice" of the music that I am trying to express (from inside of me) at the time.

    I associate that guitar with that "voice," and the change of parts over time either moves the guitar closer to, or further from the ideal voice in my head. I associate this guitar (in it's current configuration) as a more idealized version of the original guitar.
     
  4. Asmith

    Asmith Friend of Leo's

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    I've nearly replaced everything on my first guitar, it's the blue one in my signature and avatar. The only original parts are the jack plate and the body which as you can see has been drastically reshaped and refinished, I don't partially feel fond of the original guitar so consider then different guitars.

    As far as the ship of Theseus goes I personally think you fail to define the ship when you try to describe it with a badly defined noun. The answer depends on how you choose to define the ship of Theseus and then all you really have is an opinion.

    The only way to accurately describe the ship and it's collection of rotted throw away parts is to tell it's story.

    If you rebuild the ship with the original parts then you have 2 ships; the ship of Theseus that started the journey and the ship of Theseus that finished the journey.
     
  5. Mike Simpson

    Mike Simpson Doctor of Teleocity

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    Believe it or not... this has been discussed many times on TDPRI and pretty much every time the consensus has been that if you change the body or neck it ceases to be the original guitar and becomes a partscaster. You may change all the original parts except the body and neck and it remains the same guitar but modified to suit an owners preferences and that will affect the value depending on the purchasers preferences. Yes, we also beat the dead horse that Fender basically pulls the parts out of a bin and assembles them but once they do that it becomes that guitar that Fender sold as a complete guitar.

    Also there were always some people that never agreed on anything and sometimes that was because they had a vested interest in justifying that some part of an old 58 guitar still made it have the value of a complete 58 guitar. All my Teles are partscasters or I made the body and neck myself. I do have a Muddy Waters Tele that is original except the pickguard.

    .
     
  6. Asmith

    Asmith Friend of Leo's

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    Brain cells last a life time and generally we don't gain any more past past puberty.
     
  7. Jimmy Dean

    Jimmy Dean Friend of Leo's

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    I have a Squier 51 that I bought new in 2004. It has the original body, original neck & original neck plate. Everything else has been replaced. Neck still has Squier logo & serial number. It is what it is.
     
  8. Jupiter

    Jupiter Telefied Ad Free Member

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    It's NEVER the "same guitar." It's always already a different guitar.
     
  9. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Poster Extraordinaire

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    This is why I never change parts on my guitars — Too philosophically confusing!
     
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  10. 3-Chord-Genius

    3-Chord-Genius Poster Extraordinaire

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    I've wondered this. David Gilmour's black strat had the pickguard, pickups, and neck (several times) replaced. I mean, what the heck?? For a long time it had a Charvel neck with a "Fender" decal. When did it stop being a strat? The only original thing left is the body and it's not even the original color.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
  11. JL_LI

    JL_LI Friend of Leo's

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    I own a guitar. I modify it. It’s still the same guitar. I modify it again. It’s still the same guitar, my guitar. It’s still the same guitar after the fifth or sixth change. I sell it to Charlie. There are things he doesn’t like about it. He makes some changes. It’s no longer the same guitar. It’s Charlie’s guitar. He’s personalized it to make it his own. I think of this as the guitar’s provenance.

    If I buy a different guitar and after a year or two sell it unchanged to Charlie. It’s still the same guitar. Its provenance is unchanged.

    This is perfectly clear to me, but so is the idea that reality derives from the collapse of the wave function.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2020
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  12. Steerforth

    Steerforth Friend of Leo's

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    If you look closer, the single coil pickup has been changed. The humbucker was flipped to maintain opposite polarity to the new single coil, so that the two pickups will play nicely together with the switch in the middle position.

    Another question that comes up about G&L Bluesboys is why the humbucker appears to be farther from the neck than it should be to be located in the, “sweet spot”.

    That’s done intentionally to balance the two pickups, one with the other. If this was not done, when you flipped the switch from the single coil to the humbucker, it would be apt to startle people.
     
  13. edvard

    edvard Tele-Afflicted

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    In my opinion, once you remove an "essential" from the guitar, it's no longer the same guitar. Separate the neck from the body, replace a 3-saddle with a 6-saddle (or vicey-versey), replace a bakelite pickguard with a tortie (or vicey-versey), replace original pickups, replace original pots (especially with a different brand or resistance value), replace original caps with ones of a different value, any of those I would consider it not to be the original. Tuners and things like bridge saddles and strap buttons I'd give a pass as long as they were replaced with an exact replica like Fender branded reproductions, but other hardware should at least be reproduction-quality (stainless steel vs. whatever China uses for screws these days). However, if you keep the old parts in a baggie or box with the case, you can still make the claim that you have the original, even if it's not what you're playing.

    That said, I'm only delineating these specifics in order to avoid the "Theseus' ship" arguments. As with @JL_LI's comment above, no matter what you do to it, it is still your guitar, do whatever you want to it. 50 years after you've passed, I don't think you'll be worrying if your great-grandkid won't be able to get top dollar for "Gramp's old guitar" on the Antiques Road Show because you swapped the neck, put a "Little '59" in the bridge, and heat-stripped the Poly Candy Apple Red so you could give it a Nitro Sunburst finish.

    Now, if you were famous, it might be a different story...
     
  14. AAT65

    AAT65 Poster Extraordinaire

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    My Tele has the serial number on the neck: my Jazzmaster has the serial number on the neck plate. Maybe those are the crucial identifying parts...o_O
     
  15. G.Rotten

    G.Rotten Tele-Afflicted

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    As others have said. It's mods until the body & neck are separated, then it's a Partscaster.
     
  16. Stucks69

    Stucks69 NEW MEMBER!

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    One could argue, change any part and it is not the same guitar. Alternatively, one could argue that by changing multiple parts gets to a point that it is more new than original. You could do it by weight then it is more or less the same guitar until the weight of the new guitar parts exceed the old. Perhaps it is only when the last part is changed that it is a different guitar completely. This is definitely a first world problem :D
     
  17. Cesspit

    Cesspit Tele-Holic

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    It's called a partcaster for a reason. I brought a battered Silver series Squier and all that's left is the body, even the original paint is gone. Every thing else has been upgraded.
     
  18. stormsedge

    stormsedge Friend of Leo's

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    When it rains, or the guitar is sold to someone else...whichever comes first.
     
  19. 985plowboy

    985plowboy Friend of Leo's

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    ....when you think it does.
     
  20. Jimclarke100

    Jimclarke100 Tele-Afflicted

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    Classic triggers broom from Only Fools and Horses:

    Trigger And that's what I've done. Maintained it for 20 years. This old brooms had 17 new heads and 14 new handles in its time.
    Sid How the hell can it be the same bloody broom then?
    Trigger Theres the picture. What more proof do you need?
     
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