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When did MSR and street prices align???

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by E5RSY, Aug 15, 2016.

  1. E5RSY

    E5RSY Doctor of Teleocity

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    Fender and Sweetwater list the same prices for instruments. When did that happen? What happened to street prices being lower than list? I must've been under a rock, but used to be street prices were significantly lower.

    Scott
     
  2. waparker4

    waparker4 Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I don't know but using the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, in 2012 fender.com was listing the American Standard at $1529.99 - 1629.99 MSRP, now it just says $1299.99

    Also, fender.com wasn't an online store back then afaik, now it has a shopping cart feature and everything.
     
  3. tele12

    tele12 Friend of Leo's

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    I think it was about a year or so ago.
     
  4. Jakedog

    Jakedog Telefied Ad Free Member

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    These are the street prices. They aren't listing MSRP anymore. There was no point in it. Everybody assumed what was listed in the catalogs was MSRP and wanted a deeper discount anyhow. People I talked to actually said "there is no such thing as MSRP, it's just a number they throw out to make you think the street price is a discount".

    Which is not true. At all. MSRP is double dealer cost, for most instruments and amps. Not all, but most. Street price was anywhere from 20-40% off that. Always.

    Now, places are just selling for street price and not listing MSRP, since it did them no good anyhow. Current prices you see listed are anywhere from 10-30% up from dealer cost. Same as they've always been from the larger outlets.

    Prices did used to be lower than they are now, but that's the nature of annual price increases.

    My thinking on Fender is that they've started selling direct in anticipation of either losing some major players in their dealer network, or just closing that dealer network altogether.

    If I'm Fender, I'm selling everything at dealer cost, and dealing with shipping, dealer maintenance, and whole pile of crap and expenses that go along with it. What if I go totally direct, save all those expenses, and sell for the same prices my dealers do?

    That's a huge, astronomical profit increase.

    I can foresee a time when "try before you buy" won't be an option. Brick and mortar sales just can't compete with warehouse sales. They'll go away. Most people these days only try out stuff in stores so they can order it online anyhow. Chop that expense out. Keep the money, and sell for more? It's a win/win for Fender for sure.
     
  5. Vizcaster

    Vizcaster Poster Extraordinaire

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    "List" was always a myth, but online shopping is so common that the "minimum advertised price" has become obvious. The retailers are obliged in their contract to be authorized dealers to (1) never advertise below the MAP, and (2) carry a boatload of stock that makes it hard for local owner-operated stores to be authorized dealers. I'm told it's even worse for jewelers trying to carry different brands of watches.

    It is curious, though, that the manufacturers own web pages now use the MAP instead of some unrealistic list price.
     
  6. Chick-N-Picker

    Chick-N-Picker Friend of Leo's

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    Well what gets me is when somebody is selling something used and wants $25 less than new price.

    I see this is a lot. And if you ask them what the lowest they can take. They get sarcastic and tell you what the product is and how much it's worth.

    Once something is used it's not worth new value anymore.
     
  7. 1293

    1293 Poster Extraordinaire

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    Try telling that to someone selling a '52 tele.
     
  8. boris bubbanov

    boris bubbanov Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    I think when FMIC decided to start marketing and selling guitars, basses and amps Directly to the consumer, through their own means, if they used one price for the guys at Sweetwater and another for MF and another for themselves, if their prices were higher their enterprise would achieve nothing and if their prices were lower than their Dealers, those guys would file suit against them in 45 seconds.

    So, they had to get rid of the whole MSRP thing and create some congruity in the sales price at all purchase locales.

    I also think that the abolition of the MSRP tied into a small but meaningful increase in the actual prices of these products. Look, this new MIM Deluxe Thinline has a "genuine" price that's higher than any other price for a MIM ever (except maybe those Cobain models?). If the MSRP had gone way over $ 1,000, everyone who was buying or thinking or pretending they were buying, would have their hair on fire. Sometimes you want to make it LOOK like the price is up (Gibson) and sometimes you want the actual price to go up while creating no anxiety.
     
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  9. Jakedog

    Jakedog Telefied Ad Free Member

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    List has never been a myth, or unrealistic. It's the list price, figured with real math. It exists, and it's legit.

    Most major music retail items are what is called "A" mark. There are also items that are "B" mark, and "C" mark. Not often, but they exist. B mark costs a dealer 60% of MSRP, C mark costs a dealer 70% of MSRP, etc.

    For A mark items, MSRP is double dealer cost. Dealer cost is double the cost of manufacturing. It's really simple.

    If it costs a maker $250 to manufacture a guitar, your local dealer buys it for $500. The manufacturer says MSRP is $1000. Back in the days before the Internet and widespread mail order, this was the price everybody either paid, or haggled from. Period.

    With the advent of mail order and Internet, overhead costs went away. Sellers no longer had the expenses associated with having a store and a staff, so they could sell at discount rates. "Street price" was born. These sellers were typically making the same or more profit than the retailers were making before, by having reduced overhead costs, and selling more volume due to discounted prices. Retailers, in order to stay in business, had to match street prices from online and mail order sellers. The ones that survived, that is.

    All of a sudden, mom and pop used to "rip us off", and MSRP is a myth.

    Neither of which are true.
     
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  10. E5RSY

    E5RSY Doctor of Teleocity

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    The world does change, and maybe I'm a relic, but I truly cannot wrap my head around buying an instrument without first playing it. The guitar experience is three things: appearance, feel and sound. Nothing more, nothing less. The latter two are unmeasurable when buying direct.

    I imagine the manufacturers and/or NAMM have done market surveys to see who cares and who doesn't, but with an already shrinking market, why exclude any potential customers, at all? I guess folks like me will just buy used.

    Scott
     
  11. joy-z

    joy-z TDPRI Member

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    That's why the online retailers have good return policies.
     
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  12. superbadj

    superbadj Poster Extraordinaire

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    This.

    I understand those who hesitate to buy sight-unseen. I get it. But I also have gotten some great deals by going that route.

    There are a few factors at play, in my opinion.

    1: Know what you want. Rather than searching for inspiration to strike (which playing facilitates), if you know what you want you search differently.

    2: know how to set up your guitar. Most guitars these days are just fine, if they have the features you want. Few are true "dogs" purely by the nature of their specific wood selection/etc. Yes there are some, but few. If you can work on your own guitars well, even if you get one that needs effort to get into shape, you'll be fine.

    3: Shop only at places with a good return policy. That way if you DO find a true dog, send it back and keep going.

    4: Find deals. Ok let's assume the guitar doesn't strike your fancy, and you can't get the setup to work well, and you can't return it. Well if you bought it at a great price, you can unload it without losing much (or sometimes any) money. I've bought several new guitars for less than the average used price simply by waiting and being in the right place at the right time. And of course, buying used deals is an even better way to go. Move it along and if you got a great deal you may even make money on the sale.
     
  13. Chick-N-Picker

    Chick-N-Picker Friend of Leo's

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    I know everybody wants $1200 or more used 52's that ain't even the PV.

    I have seen 1 or 2 used 52's for $700. I would have grabbed one if I would have had the money. At that price it would have been an investment. Could always sale it for $1000+ later.
     
  14. 1293

    1293 Poster Extraordinaire

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    If you see them in that price range, you should buy them all considering they go for $30k +.
     
  15. Chick-N-Picker

    Chick-N-Picker Friend of Leo's

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    Haha. I meant 52RI's. I left that off.

    It if was real 52's I'd sale my Jeep to buy em. Then I'd sale one and make a quick $25,000, buy me another vehicle and keep the other one. Haha
     
  16. String Tree

    String Tree Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Fender (and others) are telling the Mail Order houses who the new boss is.
    For Years, Fender and others have done ALL the leg work and heavy lifting for GC and the rest.

    They can go direct and skip those guys altogether.
     
  17. JReazor

    JReazor Tele-Holic

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    When Fender started selling direct. Proving what we all knew to be true any way. MSRP is a sham.
     
  18. alnicopu

    alnicopu Friend of Leo's

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    Here's how it works. There is no MSRP. Nobody pays this. It's called (in the business world) the "up" price, or "ceiling price". The price a sale price is based off of. Also, the most a reseller can sell it for. There are also "floor" prices which are the lowest prices a retailer, usually under contract, like "MSRP", from the manufacturer, which a reseller can sell them. Here's where price gets even murkier. When a car or piece of furniture, etc., sells for "below dealer invoice" it's because the reseller gets a rebate from the manufacturer for each unit. My wife did accounting for a furniture store and "MSRP" was usually over 300% of what the store paid.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2016
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  19. soulman969

    soulman969 Telefied Ad Free Member

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    LOL OK, C-N-P this one you'll have to explain to me.

    In the first sentence and in a previous post you seem to be complaining that at $1200 any 52RI is over priced and you wouldn't pay that much for one right?

    But in the second paragraph you say you wish you could have afforded to buy those listed for $700 so YOU could then sell it for $1200 and make a profit even after having used it for awhile.

    Does the lack of consistency in your thinking here seem a little odd to you. :confused::confused:

    Essentially what you're saying here is that if I ask $1200 for MY 52RI I have it overpriced but if it's YOUR 52RI for sale then $1200 is a fair price for it. :rolleyes:

    How many more posters here use a similar though process? :p
     
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  20. Chick-N-Picker

    Chick-N-Picker Friend of Leo's

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    No no, soulman, on the first part I'm not saying that I wouldn't ever pay $1200 for a 52RI. That is essentially what they sale for, because people pay that.

    I'm saying that since they are used and not the new PV that it would be nice if they sold the way used gear should sale for, instead of almost new prices.

    But quiet frankly, it's not just 52RI's, it appears to be all used gear, unless you get lucky

    Now as far as finding a few 52RI gems at $650-$800. Yes! If I had the money to buy one. I'd keep it. But, of course if I could buy more than one I'd sale the extra at their usual going rate and make a little money. That's just smart. People pay those prices.

    I don't see a lack of consistency in my thinking.;)
     
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