What's The Point of This Stupid Forum Anyway? Hmm, Maybe It's This:

[JuneauMike]

This is really relevant to me and I suspect it's relevant to a lot of people who have not only played in church, or volunteered in some capacity. He talks about how to best discern what to do when you have a conflict at church. One important thing to do is find counsel from someone outside the church so that he can get advice and perspective that isn't colored by loyalties, he says. That seems like the kind of thing that Worship Service Players can contribute to in some small way. They've certainly helped me think through some things in the past. And they are people who understand the culture better than an outsider. This forum isn't perfect since we aren't close to each other, but we can all empathize and at the same time can project some of the motivations of "the other side" of the conflict.



This isn't the last word, but a good starting point for those who might have felt wounded by either the church polity or just the good old fashioned pitfalls of an organization that relies on volunteers. I've said this before: Yes church is God's house, but it's also staffed by imperfect humans who as Christians in Western Society, by and large, really suck at navigating interpersonal conflicts. Our instinct is to look the other way, or make peace, or compromise ad nauseum until conflicts get untenable for some or all, and then we overshoot our target or fail to clearly communicate an objective or outcome. It's a recipe for alienating and hurting people and it almost never is intentional.

 

[GoldieLocks]

Good video. (I still like this stupid forum )

My wife and I are just about to help 2 churches with music. Both churches have some challenges and...
1). We could NOT help them and mostly nobody would care.
2). Both churches have a history of complacency and shifting resources and poorly trained volunteers.
3). Can't I just show up/shut up --- and play guitar?

Yep - all the problems are people: stubborn people, lazy people, unforgiving people, visionless people, ego-tistical people...
At the end of the day, my new goals are - how do you have a healthy spiritual community of musicians, and get the congregation to sing and feel hope and truth? Knowing full well that you can only beat a dead horse so much (but neither horse is dead yet!)
So yep, a small mountain of interpersonal conflicts are about to rise up... Wish I had a Two-Rock amp head like that guy?!

I'll probably have to wait till heaven to have my "Official: Punk rock UBER_LOUD church for Jesus" (weather permitting?)

 

[hotraman]

I thought it was a good video. I've been on both sides, as a full time worship pastor, and now serving part -time.
I have faced age discrimination with a few churches I played at, even though I really loved the culture.
There will never be a "perfect" church this side of heaven.
I'm blessed that I am now involved in a church culture where I can freely share my fears, doubts and more, without being judged or dismissed because of my age.

 

[black_doug]

I thought it was a good video. I've been on both sides, as a full time worship pastor, and now serving part -time.
I have faced age discrimination with a few churches I played at, even though I really loved the culture.
There will never be a "perfect" church this side of heaven.
I'm blessed that I am now involved in a church culture where I can freely share my fears, doubts and more, without being judged or dismissed because of my age.

Well said. And I see that we’re the same age.

I am also blessed to have found that place now after playing guitar for worship for over 40 years.

The first church was the worst, actually. The pastor told his son I must be gay because I invited the small youth group (teens and twenties) to go to a movie where the main characters were queer. Remember La Cage Aux Folles? It was later remade as Birds of a Feather. Well I thought it was hilarious, but in retrospect probably not a good idea. Plus, I wasn’t dating at the time, so he told his son not to associate with me. In the end, I married one of the young ladies and we stopped going there. The church folded a few years later, but that’s another story.

 

[hotraman]

Well said. And I see that we’re the same age.

I am also blessed to have found that place now after playing guitar for worship for over 40 years.

The first church was the worst, actually. The pastor told his son I must be gay because I invited the small youth group (teens and twenties) to go to a movie where the main characters were queer. Remember La Cage Aux Folles? It was later remade as Birds of a Feather. Well I thought it was hilarious, but in retrospect probably not a good idea. Plus, I wasn’t dating at the time, so he told his son not to associate with me. In the end, I married one of the young ladies and we stopped going there. The church folded a few years later, but that’s another story.

True.
Sorry you went through all of that. But it doesn't surprise me, having seen so many wacky and abusive behaviors from church leadership ( especially church elder boards.)

There are a few of us, who are older and have seen a lot happen in church culture.
I see changes happening, which includes revival breaking out on college campuses. Along with faith based movies being released.
Now, more than ever, we need to know "why" we believe.
And to know how to share the Gospel, in love and truth. That's the challenge.

 

[ravindave_3600]

Churches are made of people >
People are imperfect >
Churches are imperfect

Often "the worship team" can exist outside the "ministry leadership" and offer support toward both clergy and congregation. It only works though if we keep our pride, ambitions, and opinions in check.

 

[JuneauMike]

Along with faith based movies being released.

Faith based movies that don't suck, for a change. (Important to note.)

 

[Chester P Squier]

Faith based movies that don't suck, for a change. (Important to note.)

You mean a change from the ones where the actors deliver their lines as they are reading cue cards or teleprompters.

I've seen that kind.

 

[JuneauMike]

You mean a change from the ones where the actors deliver their lines as they are reading cue cards or teleprompters.

I've seen that kind.

Yep. Most Christian movies are low budget contrivances that are worse than those Hallmark movies my wife watches. We can demand better. (I just watched Jesus Revolution last night. Really good movie).

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

Yep. Most Christian movies are low budget contrivances that are worse than those Hallmark movies my wife watches. We can demand better. (I just watched Jesus Revolution last night. Really good movie).

I agree.

Passion Of The Christ was okay but ultimately pretty meh. It's strange to see people say it was biblically accurate and then see it feature Gollum while he was getting crucified.

I hear good things about The Chosen but I'll likely never see it.

Best Christian movie I saw that appeared to be big budget and actually had good acting/story.



Sadly can't say much besides that one though.

 

[JuneauMike]

I agree.

Passion Of The Christ was okay but ultimately pretty meh. It's strange to see people say it was biblically accurate and then see it feature Gollum while he was getting crucified.

I hear good things about The Chosen but I'll likely never see it.

Best Christian movie I saw that appeared to be big budget and actually had good acting/story.



Sadly can't say much besides that one though.

Passion was awesome and easily one of the most successful Christian films in history. Not sure I get the Gollum reference.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

I don't think anyone would argue it was the most successful but.... Then again, there's not much successful Christian movies to compare it with.



The unnecessary creepiness added to the scene broke the movie for a lot of people, and justably so.

 

[ravindave_3600]

I agree.

Passion Of The Christ was okay but ultimately pretty meh. It's strange to see people say it was biblically accurate and then see it feature Gollum while he was getting crucified.

I hear good things about The Chosen but I'll likely never see it.

Best Christian movie I saw that appeared to be big budget and actually had good acting/story.



Sadly can't say much besides that one though.

That was the weirdrest thing in Passion. Supposedly it was meant to symbolize Satan as the Anti-Mary carrying the baby as an Anti-Christ.

My wife and I saw Beond the Mask. Production values were pretty high but I thought the writing and historical sense were terrible.

IMHO "Christian" movies still have a long way to go (but they ARE getting better).

 

[studio]

That was the weirdrest thing in Passion. Supposedly it was meant to symbolize Satan as the Anti-Mary carrying the baby as an Anti-Christ.

My wife and I saw Beond the Mask. Production values were pretty high but I thought the writing and historical sense were terrible.

IMHO "Christian" movies still have a long way to go (but they ARE getting better).

Why don't we put the same effort towards the Christian music that we hear and often play at church?
You mentioned a movie not being as accurate as it could, can we apply the same theology standards in the P&W music?

So the OP stated music kinda void and without form, but we do have opinions and we do have our God given faculties and abilities to speak up when things aren't right.

It's never healthy to internalize an obvious error in somebody's judgment call. Most people just don't know how to handle conflict.

 

[studio]

It only works though if we keep our pride, ambitions, and opinions in check.

I don't wholeheartedly support that statement.

Because if you have a great talent/ambition and are willing to pursue a music career, why should you hide that under a bushel?

I bet everyone in your congregation recognizes your talent and are willing (hopefully) to support you on your journey.

Opinions are also a necessary function of communication. If one doesn't like pickles in their sandwich, then by all means, speak up!
Don't just sit there as a disgruntled participant eating your sandwich while your silence eats away at your sanity!

Pride is the one thing on your list I might partly agree with. There are healthy levels of pride. Pride in your craftsmanship is clearly one of them. You want the guy with a sense of pride in his work to paint the exterior of the church building right?
I don't believe anybody wants the lazy, haphazard, danger magnet crew up on that scaffold! Yikes.

Maybe I'm misreading your post. That's possible. So I'll apologize in advance if that's the case. If not, then this is my position in 2023.

Of course, everyone still needs to be able to follow direction. As long as the director has a clue, it should all fall into place and repeat itself every Sunday.

 

[hopdybob]

I left the church (building) long ago and hold on to G'd.
some wise man wrote: you have the outside of the Word and the inside.
with the outside of the Word people hit you because they don't see/understand/are afraid of the inside of the Word.
we are all a part of The One great never ending puzzle that's called life and each of us travel his/here's personal journey.
the picture changes every second in structures and colors by the not to understand/imagine greatness off the Creator of all.

So no one can say: the truth is this (the outside of the word) because the inside of that word is more variable than we could understand.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

That was the weirdrest thing in Passion. Supposedly it was meant to symbolize Satan as the Anti-Mary carrying the baby as an Anti-Christ.

My wife and I saw Beond the Mask. Production values were pretty high but I thought the writing and historical sense were terrible.

IMHO "Christian" movies still have a long way to go (but they ARE getting better).

I know it was symbolism, but that doesn't make it any less meaningless or creepy. It was just one of the strange things but you're right, it was one of the weirdest things. It's no different from the rock monsters in the movie Noah I guess.


They are modern Hollywood movies, why would we expect Hollywood to be 100% accurate and not inject something strange. Wishful thinking, eh? There's not really any excuse for it, it just is what it is. I just don't downplay what's injected into movies that are supposedly biblically correct. They don't make them like they use to, back in the 50's Biblical movies stood out because they were on par with mainstream large budget movies. Will we ever get there again? I highly doubt it. As long as there is some injection such as that demon baby and the rock monsters, we are very off course....

Why don't we put the same effort towards the Christian music that we hear and often play at church?
You mentioned a movie not being as accurate as it could, can we apply the same theology standards in the P&W music?

I believe my church already does. I can't say the same for your church or anyone else's. I can keep your church and other member's churches in prayer about it if you'd like. Of course I'd like to know exactly what you find inaccurate in the worship in order to pray for my own discernment on that. Some examples of how P&W music goes against God's word or genuine action would certainly be helpful....

Let us know!

 

[studio]

I know it was symbolism, but that doesn't make it any less meaningless or creepy. It was just one of the strange things but you're right, it was one of the weirdest things. It's no different from the rock monsters in the movie Noah I guess.


They are modern Hollywood movies, why would we expect Hollywood to be 100% accurate and not inject something strange. Wishful thinking, eh? There's not really any excuse for it, it just is what it is. I just don't downplay what's injected into movies that are supposedly biblically correct. They don't make them like they use to, back in the 50's Biblical movies stood out because they were on par with mainstream large budget movies. Will we ever get there again? I highly doubt it. As long as there is some injection such as that demon baby and the rock monsters, we are very off course....

I believe my church already does. I can't say the same for your church or anyone else's. I can keep your church and other member's churches in prayer about it if you'd like. Of course I'd like to know exactly what you find inaccurate in the worship in order to pray for my own discernment on that. Some examples of how P&W music goes against God's word or genuine action would certainly be helpful....

Let us know!

I will let you know.
But doing so without ruffling feathers on this forum would be the appropriate way to do it.

As far as my personal church, we sing hymns that were written between 200 and 300 years ago!

Long before any dispensational involvement found it's way into modern Christian songwriting.

I guess the accuracy might stem from our culture. First world problems etc.

"Oh Lord, prosper me!"
and all that it entails might not be the position we want to place between us and The Creator.

 

[ravindave_3600]

Why don't we put the same effort towards the Christian music that we hear and often play at church?
You mentioned a movie not being as accurate as it could, can we apply the same theology standards in the P&W music?

It's never healthy to internalize an obvious error in somebody's judgment call. Most people just don't know how to handle conflict.

I'm not sure I mentioned a movie being theologically inaccurate, but we should definitely apply that standard to P&W.

I don't wholeheartedly support that statement.

Because if you have a great talent/ambition and are willing to pursue a music career, why should you hide that under a bushel?

I bet everyone in your congregation recognizes your talent and are willing (hopefully) to support you on your journey.

Opinions are also a necessary function of communication. If one doesn't like pickles in their sandwich, then by all means, speak up!
Don't just sit there as a disgruntled participant eating your sandwich while your silence eats away at your sanity!

Pride is the one thing on your list I might partly agree with. There are healthy levels of pride. Pride in your craftsmanship is clearly one of them. You want the guy with a sense of pride in his work to paint the exterior of the church building right?
I don't believe anybody wants the lazy, haphazard, danger magnet crew up on that scaffold! Yikes.

Maybe I'm misreading your post. That's possible. So I'll apologize in advance if that's the case. If not, then this is my position in 2023.

Of course, everyone still needs to be able to follow direction. As long as the director has a clue, it should all fall into place and repeat itself every Sunday.

My point about keeping our pride, ambitions, and opinions in check was specifically about acting as ministers within the church. Pushing those things to the fore is antithetical to servanthood as the servant's goal is to bless while the goal of ambition, opinion, and pride is to be recognized. A certain amount of them can be motivating but if they're let off-rein they become destructive.

 

[studio]

I'm not sure I mentioned a movie being theologically inaccurate, but we should definitely apply that standard to P&W.

My point about keeping our pride, ambitions, and opinions in check was specifically about acting as ministers within the church. Pushing those things to the fore is antithetical to servanthood as the servant's goal is to bless while the goal of ambition, opinion, and pride is to be recognized. A certain amount of them can be motivating but if they're let off-rein they become destructive.

Correct in that your first post was a pastoral statement and not intended as a catch all resource.
That brings a whole new light to what you said.

Like Paul to Timothy, there is a certain degree of restraint involved in a leadership role.

My bad for not reading into your thought pattern here.

Question: so should a WL have a sense of pride and ambition towards his/her position in the church service. I mean, I want to be the best WL I can be on any given service day!

Same with opinions, as a WL, you must have an opinion on matters, right?

Personally, I would hate to be under a WL that has an underwhelming attitude.