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What would you do?

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Jegonzal, Dec 30, 2012.

  1. TheGoodTexan

    TheGoodTexan Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    Call him and be polite. Give him the benefit of the doubt as you dial the phone, and don't take an accusatory tone to the tone of your voice.

    If it turns out he did indeed dump on you, don't cut him loose just yet. Tell him that you think it was a poor way to treat someone, and that if he wants you to work with him on these future gigs, you have to base that relationship on 100% trust and honest communication.

    I'd much rather hear "I found a guy that knows twice as many songs as you do, and sings BGVs much better" than being lied to.

    Just find out the truth - but don't burn your bridges, even if it turns out that the guy did lie to you.
     
  2. TeleTim911

    TeleTim911 Friend of Leo's

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    I agree with TGT, find out the truth before you go off half cocked. Talk to this person, tell him you "heard" that he played the gig even though he told you it was cancelled, and see what he says.

    I've been messed over more times than I can count by "so-called friends". I don't want to be associated with liars, cheats, and thieves especially in the music business.

    Try to treat everyone as you want to be treated, give a little respect until there is no longer any reason to give respect.
     
  3. StarliteDeVille

    StarliteDeVille Tele-Meister

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    Make it work for you. I wouldn't get all into what happened and why with the other gig. Doesn't matter unless you have a burning desire to set the world straight and make sure it operates fairly, and if that is the case, you probably won't have much time for gigging. I would ask for more money than normal (I'd say your regular rate plus half what you would have made on the other gig he shafted you on), and I would ask for half of it up front. If he has an issue with the half up front or the amount, I would go into extensive detail about the financial jam the last gig's cancellation caused being right at the holidays and all, and how you could have lined up something else if you would have had more notice. Be nice and professional, especially if you can get more paying gigs out of this guy. I am guessing paying gigs are the focus here not a "friendship" with this guy. Factor in what his decision cost you and get it back. You don't have to explain to him, as long as you know and you get what you need money/gig-wise. Don't let some emotions get in the way of making money gigging.
     
  4. ADK Teleman

    ADK Teleman Tele-Afflicted

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    be professional, be polite and tell him that he has lost your trust by his actions and you will not be able to help him out.
     
  5. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    I find too often that what I think is what happened, turns out to be a little, or a lot, different when I learn more about it. For example, it is easy for me to get bothered by an email when I first read it. I cannot tell you how many times I have mis-interpreted something the minute my anger level rises. If I were in your shoes, my anger level would rise so fast, that I would stop reading, hearing, and thinking clearly. I've been getting a lot better at understanding this about myself, and adjusting my reaction accordingly. The main thing to realize whenever someone does something that directly affects you, is that it is not always about you. It is something that the other person has going on in their mind, heart, reactions, etc. If someone else was in my place, they would get the same message. So, don't take it personally, as difficult as that certainly would seem to be. If you want to be established as a pro musician in your area, you have to project that calm, cool attitude. After talking it over with the guy, in a completely non-hostile way, he will see that you are not someone who will fly off in times of trouble and make things more difficult for him. This will likely cause your stock to rise with this guy, as he won't have to worry about you ever being difficult. If you aren't being difficult in this situation, which you certainly have a right to, then you definitely won't be difficult in less extreme situations. That's the kind of guy that I would like to work with. You can turn this whole thing into a big plus by the way you handle it.

    I definitely think you should ask the guy what happened and give him a chance to explain. Remember that this need not be about him as a person or you as a person. This is about his business working with your business. Businesses lose work all the time. I would do whatever it takes to put your business in a better position than it is in right now. But take yourself out of the equation, and take the friendship out of the equation.

    My goal would be to have the guy want to hire you more often in the future after you have your conversation with him.
     
  6. kelnet

    kelnet Telefied Ad Free Member

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    So? What did you tell him?
     
  7. Wrong-Note Rod

    Wrong-Note Rod Poster Extraordinaire

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    What he said.

    If this guy is a good enough friend, you might want to tell him you know what he did, and ask him why.

    I'll say this; I've had people give me flimsy excuses and tell me lies, and there were times when I did the same to a few other people, and I felt lousy about it.

    Later tho, I'd re-connect with some of these people and we were able to get over it. Some of them, no, the hurt ran too deep I guess.
     
  8. zosofan

    zosofan Tele-Meister

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    This is the right thing to do of course.
    OR you could tell him "Sure, I'd love to play that gig with you" and then just not show up.
    Your call.
    Good luck whatever you decide.
    Eric
     
  9. bendecaster

    bendecaster Friend of Leo's

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    Larry, I mostly agree with your statements here, but I would think that when the OP does talk to the guy in a non-hostile way, he should be assertive enough not to get crapped on again(if that is what really happened). If the guy thinks he can get away with a half-assed apology, then back to bs business as usual, he could burn him again.

    I would like to hear what has transpired with the OP and this guy.
     
  10. Jegonzal

    Jegonzal TDPRI Member

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    Actually after he called me regarding the up coming gigs I spoke to other guys that have worked w him and he has done similar things to them so I decided not to get back with him and not do the gigs.
     
  11. kelnet

    kelnet Telefied Ad Free Member

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    But what did you say to him?
     
  12. Jegonzal

    Jegonzal TDPRI Member

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    I told him I would get back w him but i never did. I decided not to work w him again. I figured if he would call again I would ask for an explanation and give it another shot but he never did so I just left it at that.
     
  13. emu!

    emu! Poster Extraordinaire

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    You call him a friend, but he sounds more like a business partner. He probably doesn't even think he did anything wrong to you. Just tell him you need the money up front next time.
     
  14. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    and this is why musicians have reputations (generatlity) for being flakes.

    without knowing the whole situation, I'd say that he found a better player and instead of being rude, he tried to be gentle and he chose to lie. Lying isn't a good thing generally, but nearly everyone has done something similar.

    Gigs get cancelled. He would have been smarter to simply call you and say "sorry for the short notice your gig has been cancelled, I'll make it up to you another time with other gigs." and be done.

    So, he is socially inept... ummmm, lots of people are.

    As for confronting him or cutting him off, I always vote no on this. No matter how much the guy was rude or a knucklehead, the musician world is a very small one and the bridge you burn today will most likely be the one you stare at that would have taken you past this cat to some people who would be great to play with.

    I'd also suggest that parking lot conversations and gossiping about musicians is foolish. the return is never what the gain could be.... I have played with great musicians who are also great people and poor musicians who are great people and great musicians who were jerks... It is likely that this will continue for as long as I play... the one common thread: gigs.

    The only really bad part I read was the short notice part... for me, when it happens it is both a huge disappointment and a mild relief... but, I'm not a full time player by any stretch... if it was to put food on my table, I would have had a full contract, terms and an agreement... if it is a casual or semi pro thing (like most of my gigs as a sideman) then it goes like it goes.

    When I find myself frustrated, I try really hard to be polite.

    Life is long if we are lucky. Because it is so dang long, you gotta be nice and followup and not be a flake. The bandleader made choices that went against you, then he tried to make up for it and you decided to shine him on and not return his calls...

    that is your choice, but he is probably relieved by your lack of followup and as people do, he has probably already rationalized that you would have flaked on the gig like you are on the call back.

    Being a really kick ass person means doing the right thing even when everyone else is failing to...

    Woody Allen said something like "95% of life is just showing up" (or maybe it was Einstein) and it is... but 100% of life is uncertain circumstances... the only control we have in life is how we choose to interpret things and then how we choose to act. We make those parts up...

    From the data you gave, he probably invited two guys and both said yes, he forgot, had to make a choice and you lost out. He felt bad, offered you some additional opportunities but you were not willing to get over it and take the gigs.

    Cesar Millan always comments (and I have noticed) that really bad stuff can happen to your dog and in a few minutes... he is ready to try again (maybe wary of the person or dog who did the wrong thing, but willing to entertain the opportunity)

    Good luck man. It stinks when people don't think of others and when we hold the short stick, but it is just a gig, another comes along so long as you stay in the mix.
     
  15. smallstoner

    smallstoner Tele-Meister

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    Yeah, and when we get busted doing it, we take heat for it, and we deserve it.

    Really, who was he trying to be gentle with? The lie wasn't to make the OP feel better; it was to make the situation easier on himself. It's not something to get violent about or anything, but I don't think I could bring myself to eat this guy's **** and pretend it's corn flakes. That'd have to be one very lucrative gig.

    There's a difference between being easygoing and just being a wuss.
     
  16. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    this is the part where I would say that you are choosing how to interpret what happened. Maybe you truly understand what was in the guy's head and heart and maybe your interpretation is what you feel. You don't know for sure and you are making a conclusion that is a one way street.

    If a bandleader called me and told me the gig was cancelled and I found it wasn't, I'd be puzzled and confused and I'd ask him. If I didn't find out, I'd be none the wiser and would not care.

    If I asked him and he said, "hey, sorry man, I had called two of you, forgot (busy at work!) and when it got down to gig time I knew I had to cancel one of you, you are a more reasonable guy, the other guy can be kind of nuts, so, I chose to cancel you... but, I have 6 gigs coming up and I want to get you on the calendar so that we are squared away. I appreciate you being reasonable about it and I owe you and want us to be square."

    Totally possible.

    or "hey man, so how come the late cancel for a gig that you actually did?"

    him: "Amigo, I love you, but the other guy just shined the last time we played, we had an opportunity to have him out and I took it. It is a crappy thing to do, but it was the best business decision for the band and I made it. I tried to soften by just canceling, so I lied and I feel bad about it, in fact, I have some gigs coming up that are much less visible and a great place for you to find your feet with us, I'd like to offer those to you if you are interested.

    Even using terms like 'wuss' is kind of silly. Getting gigs is the key, then playing your ass off at the gig so that they'd never think of someone as being better than you is just smart.

    Getting all emotive and pouty and taking your ball and going home is childish. The guy took money out of your pocket... now, go get in his 6 or 7 times. When, by playing with this guy (who may be a turd) you are seen by 3 other bandleaders who offer you better gigs... you take them, give notice and make your life better by seeing the opportunity rather than racing down one way streets that are a dead end.

    Stay in the game. I had a buddy in college whose adage was "if you want to be a man, you have to wear pants."

    That had to do with picking them up, putting them on and going to work. If going to work makes a man a wuss... sign me up.
     
  17. Jegonzal

    Jegonzal TDPRI Member

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    You know when it first happened I thought the same thing, I thought to myself "I gotta swallow my pride and by not taking the gigs I will be shooting myself in the foot" but after not calling him back and him not reaching out to me again it brings to believe that the friendship was never there and will pull the same number on me in the future. At this time I think it's best to stay away from a feller that does things in that manner. Some of you might think that it's a cowardly thing not to have called him to call him out on the situation but somehow I think that it's best for him not to know that I know what went down.
     
  18. getbent

    getbent Telefied Silver Supporter

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    Jegonzal,
    I think you are smart not to call him out.
    I don't think that working with him on other gigs would be 'swallowing your pride' though.

    The old saying goes "This isn't show friends it is show business" comes to mind. There are some nice people who suck at business and some awful people who suck at business...

    Over the years I've worked and played with some people who were not cut out to do business.. they were nice enough people but clueless and unprofessional... this edge cuts both ways though... you keep couching this situation in the 'friends' mode but switch it up to business when it suits you.

    If you have decided that this guy is bad for your business, then cut him loose and say nothing. (and I mean nothing... to anyone else.) let it go.

    If he asks you, shrug (like he would) and let it go.

    there is no winning or 'telling him off'... people who think something good happens from that have some areas that did not develop after 8th grade. Be smart and follow the goals you have... if this guy will never be part of those plans... then cut him loose and don't look back.

    If the hardest thing to do is to keep your business to yourself, then chances are that is the right thing to do... the hard stuff is usually the stuff that the little guys don't want to do.... the big guys... they shoulder up and succeed.
     
  19. kelnet

    kelnet Telefied Ad Free Member

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    I'm a bit confused by your wording here. Are you saying that you told him that you would call him back, but then you never did?
     
  20. Jegonzal

    Jegonzal TDPRI Member

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    Yes
     
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