What to do with push/pull pot?

Discussion in 'Just Pickups' started by bossfrog, Sep 21, 2019.

  1. bossfrog

    bossfrog TDPRI Member

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    Okay, I need ideas. I will be replacing the pickups in my Schecter Gryphon with more vintage PAF'ish pickups. The tone knob on this has a push pull pot that was obviously enough used to coil split the way hot pickups that are currently installed. Now I don't really care for coil split sounds, especially on lower output humbuckers. I'd hate to put the switch to waste. So what other things might I be able to do with this other than just leave it unused? Can it be used to switch the pickups to parallel instead of series? Maybe a phase switch for some Brian May kind of stuff on the neck pickup? Mute switch?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  2. Guitarteach

    Guitarteach Poster Extraordinaire

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    Can switch one to parallel / series... maybe the neck.

    Or phase switch the middle position for the Pete Green tone.
     
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  3. bossfrog

    bossfrog TDPRI Member

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    Okay here's what I think I want to do. I'd like the push/pull to switch the neck pickup from between in series with the coils in phase to in series with the coils out of phase. This should give a decent approximation of a Brian May neck/mid out of phase tone. How would that be wired?

    Probably should leave the hot neck pickup in place if I go with that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  4. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    replace it with a standard pot, then buy another.. screw 'em both to separate boards and make bookends outta 'em.. :p Less is More...

    rk
     
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  5. drf64

    drf64 Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    It's the veterans providing expert advice that keeps me coming back here. :rolleyes:
     
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  6. SPUDCASTER

    SPUDCASTER Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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  7. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    here's the thing.. while there IS something to be said for having what ya want, and how that impacts what you hear in your head.. the reality is, the more 'stuff" you put in the signal path, the more the signal is eroded... every switch contact, every pot, every solder joint, every THING... allows for a minuscule amount of the upper frequencies to fade into oblivion.. ad enough and all you have left is a fond recollection of what the original, unencumbered signal could sound like..

    the "best" sound from a guitar, any guitar, is realized with nothing between the output of the pickup and the amp.. But that's a bit unrealistic... add another pickup and you need some what to switch between them, and at the very least a volume control is necessary... but that degrades the signal.. start adding FX pedals.. and by time the signal gets to the amp.. it's vaguely reminiscent of the original.

    There is NOTHING that can be added to the signal path that actually improves it... from a technical aspect... every single thing "on the line" between the pickup and the amp erodes the signal to some degree... so.. less is more...

    Now this is from a technical aspect.. there is another factor... you.. you have to like what ya hear.. and for some a pure unencumbered signal just doesn't cut it.. that's OK, you're allowed not to like some sounds... that's what art is about... so ya add stuff to sculpt the spectrum into something you DO like. . . that's reality.. for those guys, less is only less...

    r
     
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  8. 4pickupguy

    4pickupguy Poster Extraordinaire

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    Do you want it to give you a different sound option on your guitar? If so, experiment. Its fun and educational. If you are worried about what the original signal looks like to sensitive equipment, or if you can hear the degradation and it bugs you, simply bypass it. I like to let my ear be the judge on guitar projects. That said I have never found a HB pickup that sound good as single a coil, so I would gravitate toward parallel/series.
     
  9. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    Im pretty sure wiring the humbucker OOP will effectively kill the output of the pickup, since both coils produce near-identical signals, but if you like trying cRaZy things, it's the same in phase/ out of phase wiring you would use for a full pickup, but applied to one of the humbucker's coils. The concept is that you're treating one humbucking pickup as if it were two individual pickups.

    If you tell me the manufacturer of the humbucker I can tell you more specifically how to do it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
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  10. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    If everything you add to the circuit "takes away" and "degrades" the signal, then why have a tone and volume and selector switch? Shouldn't these evils also be expelled from the control cavity? If less is always more, does not that also mean that cheap electronics are superior, since they tend to use smaller pots and thinner wire, and cost less, and are assembled with less care?
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2019
  11. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    ONE p/p? Just ONE? I'm teasing...
    My favorite:

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    you completely missed the intended point... completely..

    r
     
  13. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    I'm pretty sure I didn't. You're saying that adding knobs and switches causes minuscule losses, using the word minuscule specifically. Minuscule means imperceptibility tiny. A minuscule cost is a reason to buy in, not opt out.

    I think maybe what you were alluding to is that when a guitar has too many knobs and switches, it tends to take focus from the music and the playing. But this is why I love push pulls, they've very easy to ignore if you want to ignore them.
     
  14. Ronkirn

    Ronkirn Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    the point that went unnoticed is that the most pure unencumbered signal occurs in a straight line (figuratively) running from the pickup to the amp.. add anything into that "line".. and it can only degrade, modify, encumber that purity... There is nothing that can done to the signal that , from a technical view, improves it, clarifies it, or increases its "purity".

    Now.. that degradation may result in a sound "you" prefer over the unencumbered signal.. that's fine... but my overall point is that the more switches, pots, miscellaneous "stuff" inserted into the signal, erodes that signal, again from a technical aspect.. But, that doesn't mean the signal, after being processed by whatever it's working its way through, cannot be more desirable than the pure uninhibited signal..

    and that does not apply to a DC current.. but in a high impedance circuit with multiple frequencies.. it's just the nature of the thing, the higher frequencies just Love to leak off at any given opportunity..

    I'm not suggesting that multiple levels of switching, and pots, cannot produce a viable workable and preferred sound.. I'm just saying that in a laboratory setting a guitar without all that "stuff" produces a truer representation of what the string is doing as its inducing the signal, than one with a complex switching arrangement.


    r
     
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  15. bossfrog

    bossfrog TDPRI Member

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    Well here's the deal. You've kind of hijacked my thread here. This guitar only has a single volume and tone control, so it has less "stuff" than any Les Paul. If I wanted to trash the P/P pot, I would do that. But I would rather have the versatility it offers and put it to some use. The "truest representation" of what the string is doing is very boring for most electric guitar applications with the exception of possibly some jazz guitar, but even then, probably not because there is usually a lot of treble rolled off. The whole idea of tube amps and effects is specifically to **** with that "true representation" to create something special and unique. Otherwise, you might as well just wire your pickups directly to the output jack and plug straight into a PA speaker. I'm not sure about you but I don't play in a laboratory on an oscilloscope. A P/P pot is hardly complex switching. I think Brian May has done pretty well with the 6 switches on his guitar.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
  16. bossfrog

    bossfrog TDPRI Member

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    I think this may be the way I go then. How would you adapt this to a single vol and single tone with the tone being the p\p?
     
  17. Antigua Tele

    Antigua Tele Friend of Leo's

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    That's disproved by the simple fact that a pickup wired directly to the output jack is generally considered a bad sound. It's 100% pure, and yet it's still bad. It's more like this; what the pickup produces is raw a ingredient, the controls are like spices. You mix everything together and you end up with something more tasty than the raw ingredients by themselves. The cable capacitance, tone and volume loading are not merely necessary evils, they make a positive contribution to the end result.
     
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  18. bossfrog

    bossfrog TDPRI Member

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    Yeah, you're right. OOP pickup configurations need some space between the two coils to really work. I think it would work well with both inner coils of the two pickups, but that might require more than one P/P pot.
     
  19. bossfrog

    bossfrog TDPRI Member

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    Here's another thought. Theoretically, could you brighten a dark/dull/muddy humbucker by wiring a .022uF or .047uF cap in parallel with the second coil of the pickup? It would pass higher frequencies around that second coil, but would it be a pleasant result? Has anyone tried this?
     
  20. Deaf Eddie

    Deaf Eddie Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    I think this may be the way I go then. How would you adapt this to a single vol and single tone with the tone being the p\p?


    See if you can follow this one (a quick and dirty edit):
    1pp-series-oop  1v-1t.jpg

    Remember, with the p/p pulled, the 3-way pickup selector will give you:

    1 - neck
    2 - (middle throw) neck (repeats)
    3 - series out of phase
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2019
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