What should sanding look like? How do i know im not sanding too much?

[73bjt]

I'm building a kit guitar for the first time and have lots of questions about my finish. What has happened so far:

Sanded Mahogany body to 220
Applied one coat of sanding sealer then sanded 320
Applied Angelus Leather dyes attempting a cherryburst.
Applied a coat of sanding sealer but the dyes hadn't fully dried (I tried applying while it was hanging) and tried to hurriedly apply over the rest of the body.
Not too much damage done but in the hurry there were some streaks and globs toward the bottom after drying.

So I was going to sand and then apply a grain filler and then clear finish. But when I started sanding, it just looked like I was sanding off what I had done. I was very lightly using 400 and then just stopped for fear of another screw up.

What should the guitar look like as its being sanded? It looked like I was just messing it up (which is very possible lol) but I guess I didn't know what to expect and hadn't ever sanded with color on the body.

appreciate any advice/comments. Total noob at this. Thanks!

 

[Blue Bill]

We'll need some pictures to be able to offer advice.

 

[Peegoo]

Sanding back a stain is a very tricky process because you need to work slowly and carefully.

You did learn a lesson about patience; the finishing process is the stage where patience is critical. There are no shortcuts and the are no tricks or fast fixes. And small mistakes can lead to big disappointment. Slow down and take your time.

The best thing you can do when you're working with any new finishing process is to practice first on scrap wood. It is not a waste of time because you will make your mistakes in practice, and then apply what you learned to the expensive piece of wood.

Look here:

 

[RobRiggs]

Sanding back a stain is a very tricky process because you need to work slowly and carefully.

You did learn a lesson about patience; the finishing process is the stage where patience is critical. There are no shortcuts and the are no tricks or fast fixes. And small mistakes can lead to big disappointment. Slow down and take your time.

The best thing you can do when you're working with any new finishing process is to practice first on scrap wood. It is not a waste of time because you will make your mistakes in practice, and then apply what you learned to the expensive piece of wood.

Look here:

Wow. That lady is an artist. Those dye finishes are amazing.

 

[Freeman Keller]

I'm building a kit guitar for the first time and have lots of questions about my finish. What has happened so far:

Sanded Mahogany body to 220
Applied one coat of sanding sealer then sanded 320
Applied Angelus Leather dyes attempting a cherryburst.
Applied a coat of sanding sealer but the dyes hadn't fully dried (I tried applying while it was hanging) and tried to hurriedly apply over the rest of the body.
Not too much damage done but in the hurry there were some streaks and globs toward the bottom after drying.

So I was going to sand and then apply a grain filler and then clear finish. But when I started sanding, it just looked like I was sanding off what I had done. I was very lightly using 400 and then just stopped for fear of another screw up.

What should the guitar look like as its being sanded? It looked like I was just messing it up (which is very possible lol) but I guess I didn't know what to expect and hadn't ever sanded with color on the body.

appreciate any advice/comments. Total noob at this. Thanks!

Your sequence is somewhat different from what I do with mahogany and its kind of too late to reverse it. To answer your specific question about sanding, I sand the bare wood starting at 180 or 220 and going up to 320. I sand with the grain and the goal is to get every scratch out. I'll put a light behind my work and get down and squint at the body looking for any imperfection. We the wood to raise the grain and sand some more.

If I'm going to stain mahogany I do it next. I don't like sealers if I'm going to stain, the seal the wood (duh). After staining I'll very light scuff sand again. If I was doing a fade or sunburst I would have done most of that with the stain, I might sand to lighten the center of the burst.

I pore fill porous wood like mahogany at this point. Maple doesn't need pore filling. I sand my pore filler back level with the surface of the wood trying not go actually sand wood. It often takes 2 or 3 applications of pore filler.

A couple of coats of sealer very lightly sanded to 320. The three coats of lacquer per day sanding to 320 each day. The idea is to build thickness and level sand it perfectly smooth. The new lacquer melt in to the old stuff so I can be fairly aggressive with my sanding. After 6 or 9 or 12 coats I should be fairly smooth and have pretty good thickness. I typically shoot one more coat highly reduced but that is optional. Start wet sanding at 1000 and go up to 2000 using all the grits. Buff with an automotive polish that does not have silicon or wax.

Attached are some pictures of finishing a mahogany neck that is stained to match a rosewood body.

Wow. That lady is an artist. Those dye finishes are amazing.

An important thing to remember is that she is staining flamed maple, not mahogany. She doesn't touch the mahogany body.

 

[Silverface]

But when I started sanding, it just looked like I was sanding off what I had done. I was very lightly using 400 and then just stopped for fear of another screw up.

1. You should always learn how to apply a finish system - completely - on scrap wood until you get the results you are looking for. The way you're doing it very often leads to irreversible errors.

2. Sanding sealer almost always looks "gone" when sanded - b3cause it's a sealer with clear pigments and resin systems that penetrate and seal the grain - not build a paint-like film.

3. Do you know how thin lacquer coats are applied? a single coat - even TWO coats - will not cover or flow smoothly. that happens starting with the third coat. If you try to get full coverage coats like you're painting a bike you'll trap solvents in the system and it may never dry (and will likely blister and discolor.

4. Most techs who do lacquer finish work - and those , who like me, worked in the coatings industry for decades, never sand between coatsm of lacquer except to fix tiny runs.

Sanding between coats of lacquer (except for sanding sealer) is unnecessary and does more harm than good, contaminating the surface. If there's heavy orange peel that's an application problem - NOT a normal situation, and indicates over-application.

Light orange peel is not a problem if the coating is being applied correctly, and any small amounts are removed during the buffing process (there is no such thing as "finish sanding" to smooth the whole thing as part of a normal finish project - that is a corrective measure because of not enough practice passes and is a repair process only - not a normal part of finishing.

The single most common problem in finish work is "impatience" - not being willling to taken the time applying the entire system on scrap until it's right.

I've been doing finish work since 1971, and apply entire systems on scrap if I use even one new product in the system. Not all products work together the same way, and you have to learn how what YOU are using works; apply thin coats with the piece hanging or suspended vertically, working top to bottom; and remember - it's not paint and isn't applied anything like it.

 

[73bjt]

Thanks everyone for the very informed and knowledgeable replies! I appreciate all the detailed responses a lot.

I don't really know how to post on this site, but beautiful guitars Freeman Kelly! Those finishes are really amazing. It seems everyone has slightly to extremely different opinions about finishes, but I adopted this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYe4Pmcy3oA&t=252s from this builder regarding dye stain (if anyone cares to watch, the link starts when he discusses finishes with dyes specifically).

I neglected to mention that I applied sanding sealer then a brown dye all over the body, then sanded back to leave the grains visible, like the lady did expertly in that video.

I have included some photos this time. So obviously my "cherry burst" didn't come out as anticipated. I knew Mahogany would turn out darker (I did practice on a different type of wood to try and practice blending - the mahogany at the hardware store were a little pricey and involved cutting and I was tired at that point. My fault) but I ended up liking how it turned out. The first photo is after having sanded down and applied the dyes. The picture after that is after putting sanding sealer on top (to lock the colors in according to the video I linked above) as I said the dyes werent completely dry and so it caused some unevenness.

Also included a pic of the collected sanding sealer at the bottom. I had to sand fairly vigorously to get those hardened globs off which took me down to bare wood again. I reapplied the red dye and then put some sanding sealer on top of, so at least whatever I have done to the guitar is all the same!

Just so you guys don't think I'm a traitor, I'll post a pic of my Baja Tele later haha. My friend gifted me this strat kit which has been a lot of fun learning through.

 

[jkingma]

Most woods I sand to 320, sometimes 400.

Tropical wood fretboards 600.

I've built a lot of guitars from Ancient Kauri and have found it looks far better if I go right up to 1000 or 1200.

 

[Peegoo]

1. You should always learn how to apply a finish system [et. al.]

Your post needs to be permanently pinned to the top of the Finely Finished subforum here.

Well said, brother.

 

[Sea Devil]

Silverface's post is indeed spot on, and quite succinct. Sanding is common among relative newbies and will get the job done, but the need to do it is still a sign of bad technique (inadequate prep work, bad application). Eventually, you learn how to avoid it, and the whole process is not only exponentially faster but uses much less material.

 

[Beebe]

For what it's worth, here's how I might do a burst on mahogany.

I'm currently testing out my procedure for a brown burst on a Mahogany veneered board, so it's pretty fresh in my head.

Sand 320

Water pop

Sand 400

Stain the whole body with a base color. Optional depending on final look. You can adjust the depth with the grit you choose for the previous step.

3 coats of drying oil to seal the wood.

4 coats of drying oil mixed with pigment powder that matches the dark edge color (or color of choice), plus a filler pigment like wet ground mica. Wipe on and wipe off against the grain. It should stay in the grain, and only darken the sealed wood slightly.

Multiple coats of clear lacquer and
level sanding with 1000 grit to make sure the grain is full. Don't sand through.

Spray tinted clear over the whole body for the center color.

Spray dark color around edges.

Multiple coats of clear lacquer.

Level sand with 1000 grit

Flash coat with lacquer diluted 50 percent.

Polish.

 

[badscrew_projects]

1. You should always learn how to apply a finish system - completely - on scrap wood until you get the results you are looking for. The way you're doing it very often leads to irreversible errors.

2. Sanding sealer almost always looks "gone" when sanded - b3cause it's a sealer with clear pigments and resin systems that penetrate and seal the grain - not build a paint-like film.

3. Do you know how thin lacquer coats are applied? a single coat - even TWO coats - will not cover or flow smoothly. that happens starting with the third coat. If you try to get full coverage coats like you're painting a bike you'll trap solvents in the system and it may never dry (and will likely blister and discolor.

4. Most techs who do lacquer finish work - and those , who like me, worked in the coatings industry for decades, never sand between coatsm of lacquer except to fix tiny runs.

Sanding between coats of lacquer (except for sanding sealer) is unnecessary and does more harm than good, contaminating the surface. If there's heavy orange peel that's an application problem - NOT a normal situation, and indicates over-application.

Light orange peel is not a problem if the coating is being applied correctly, and any small amounts are removed during the buffing process (there is no such thing as "finish sanding" to smooth the whole thing as part of a normal finish project - that is a corrective measure because of not enough practice passes and is a repair process only - not a normal part of finishing.

The single most common problem in finish work is "impatience" - not being willling to taken the time applying the entire system on scrap until it's right.

I've been doing finish work since 1971, and apply entire systems on scrap if I use even one new product in the system. Not all products work together the same way, and you have to learn how what YOU are using works; apply thin coats with the piece hanging or suspended vertically, working top to bottom; and remember - it's not paint and isn't applied anything like it.

Can only +1 this because everything here is said 100% right

 

[Silverface]

@badscrew_projects - Thanks. I try; unfortunately, then advice usually come after a " I think I did something wrong..." or similar post. Sill, I hope I steer some folks in the right direction for future projects nif nothing else!

Unfortunately, the majority of those new to guitar finishing assume (a word that should be deleted from the whole process!) it is generally the same as "painting".

It's not. Which is the reason for repeated practice of not just using a single product - but using everything from prep materials to final buffing until the desired result is achieved. Whether a wiping stain/finish or a lacquer system, changing ONE product can change other products needed and/or procedures implemented.

Guitar finishing is not easy, and takes a lot of practice before ever touching the guitar itself.

 

[61fury]

I'm building a kit guitar for the first time and have lots of questions about my finish. What has happened so far:

Sanded Mahogany body to 220
Applied one coat of sanding sealer then sanded 320
Applied Angelus Leather dyes attempting a cherryburst.
Applied a coat of sanding sealer but the dyes hadn't fully dried (I tried applying while it was hanging) and tried to hurriedly apply over the rest of the body.
Not too much damage done but in the hurry there were some streaks and globs toward the bottom after drying.

So I was going to sand and then apply a grain filler and then clear finish. But when I started sanding, it just looked like I was sanding off what I had done. I was very lightly using 400 and then just stopped for fear of another screw up.

What should the guitar look like as its being sanded? It looked like I was just messing it up (which is very possible lol) but I guess I didn't know what to expect and hadn't ever sanded with color on the body.

appreciate any advice/comments. Total noob at this. Thanks!

That hurrying will get you everytime. I've finished 4 guitars with varying results, on my 5th, still a noob.