What is the tube amp feel? (Organic tube feel vs Sterile Digital Feel)

[eclecticsynergy]

Why is everyone stuck on using guitar speakers? The beauty of modelers is being able to sound like any rig, speakers included, through any monitor, in ears, floor monitors, studio monitors, pa speakers, etc. and not have to tote speaker cabinets around.

I understand that. The point I was trying to make was how much the actual ambient energy in a soundspace means when trying to make a comparison of feel.

Certainly it's more consistent & controllable - and a heck of a lot easier - to go direct in. But however accurate the sound reproduction, there will be some old rockers like me who miss the feel - and the adrenaline - of rock & roll band volume.

What I meant was that a modeler into a power amp through an actual cab is going to feel a lot more authentic to those who think modelers can't ever feel like a real amp.

 

[Becks Ashtray]

But what about power tube distortion? Have to let that sucker breath man.

Actually there is a lot happening in the power amp section if you drive it hard. In amps like the Tweed Deluxe and the Marshall 18 Watt the preamp sections stay clean by the time the output section starts clipping. And then there is the low dampening factor of these amps (and other non-NFB amps) compared to the higher dampening factor of SS amps. Mind you with mixed mode NFB (current feedback introduced to reduce the dampening factor) you can get the bass resonance and the rising treble thing going.

True. For distortion I usually hook up one of these...

 

[middy]

I understand that. The point I was trying to make was how much the actual ambient energy in a soundspace means when trying to make a comparison of feel.

Certainly it's more consistent & controllable - and a heck of a lot easier - to go direct in. But however accurate the sound reproduction, there will be some old rockers like me who miss the feel - and the adrenaline - of rock & roll band volume.

What I meant was that a modeler into a power amp through an actual cab is going to feel a lot more authentic to those who think modelers can't ever feel like a real amp.

Aha, I misread your post and grumpy posted. I know what you mean, and I have a closed back, oversized 2x12 in my basement for when I want to vibrate my molecules, and I think there will always be a place for that. If I was in a stoner rock band that drew a few hundred people, I would love a plexi full stack. Back when I had a regular bass gig in a rock band I used to make my kids share the back of my Honda Pilot with my Ampeg 8x10 LOL

 

[printer2]

Some fun from the same company's amps. There is a good taste test at the beginning of the vid but for now.
SS


tube

 

[klasaine]

Could you define that for me?

I'd like to understand the physics of how an amplifier with a single speaker can do anything like that.

Obviously it can't. What we all hear when there's an amp in a room (other than an anechoic chamber) are the relections. Early reflections, late reflections, bass response (buildup), etc.
As tons of others have noted here, I too attribute "feel" to ALL the factors and elements involved between striking the note and then finally hearing it. When you're live in a room, there's a lot more going on than just the amp.

Did you guys see that Creedance doc where they play at the Royal Albert Hall?
JF is playing thru a Kustom stack. I'm 99% positive that's a SS amp. Sounds pretty 'tubey' to me. What I mean by that is that it sounds good.

*I've mentioned it here before - in the last few years, modeling has gotten really really good, especially if you invest in the higher end modelers, IRs, emulations, and software. You can fool any ears now.
Also, what I personally attribute to the 'feel' of a tube has been largely if not completely replicated. I've recorded stuff over the last few years that I can't remember how I did it. For the record, I've been playing thru tube amps almost everyday since about 1977.

 

[Blrfl]

As tons of others have noted here, I too attribute "feel" to ALL the factors and elements involved between striking the note and then finally hearing it. When you're live in a room, there's a lot more going on than just the amp.

I think we're in violent agreement on that point, and that's why I'm on about this stuff. It's not just the physical amp or the model; I think comparisons should be made under similar conditions. Amp in room vs. model through headphones isn't similar.

You probably know this, but just to add it to the discussion since I actually did this experiment last night:

Stringing together a patch of Twin Reverb Preamp -> Spring Reverb -> Twin Reverb Amp -> Twin Cab on my Helix is a fair approximation of how a physical amp is put together. It does get an extra stage of preamp after the reverb that I try to mitigate by dropping the drive and keeping the tone stack relatively flat. Monitored through headphones, the results are, IMHO, decent but not great. Adding some light room reverb (~1 second decay, 25% mix) on the end made me like what I'm hearing a lot more. Switching the reverb from mono to stereo made it even better.

The totally-subjective way the sound of the patch made me feel improved as I refined it. So there was a change in "feel," but nothing between my fingers and the cabinet; it all came from adding "room" to it.

 

[klasaine]

I think we're in violent agreement on that point, and that's why I'm on about this stuff. It's not just the physical amp or the model

Yes, we are.

To all the tube amp 'feel' guys ...
Ever play a 100 watt Hiwatt or Sound City, or a 200 watt Marshall Major on anything less than 6 or 7? Ain't no sag or squish in those babies. Hell, a good BF/SF Twin Reverb is positively anemic on anything below about 4 ... which is screaming loud.

 

[Telenator]

So many opinions expressed here, and the only real problem is that these opinions often become mistaken as an expression of what is RIGHT or WRONG.

There is no right or wrong to this subject. Play what you love. Tend to your audience, your ears, your soul, the way you express music.
Try not to contaminate the process by getting caught up in what brush you or anyone else uses to paint their theme.

Can imagine DaVinci duking it out with Monet over their choice of brush to create a painting?

Where is the respect? When did this all become so petty?

 

[printer2]

Where is the respect? When did this all become so petty?

"(Organic tube feel vs Sterile Digital Feel)"

From the title.

 

[black_doug]

We’re passionate about our gear choices.

 

[klasaine]

Can imagine DaVinci duking it out with Monet over their choice of brush to create a painting?

Leonardo was quite the bad*$$ and very opinionated, but he also lived 350 years before Monet so he could only criticize from heaven .

 

[gonzo]

nothing about my Strymon Iridium feels sterile.

in fact, it feels every bit organic as my Mesa Boogie Mark 2b head jamming thru a marshall 4x12.

this premise is way off base IMHO

 

[Telenator]

"(Organic tube feel vs Sterile Digital Feel)"

From the title.

Someone has to be the adult...

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

I'm quite surprised this thread is still going. It seems to be talk about nothing now but it's somehow managed to stay alive lol

(I left a while back and just came by to catch up).

 

[printer2]

I'm quite surprised this thread is still going. It seems to be talk about nothing now but it's somehow managed to stay alive lol

(I left a while back and just came by to catch up).

Heck, my posts were worth the price of admission. (ha, ha, ha...)

 

[bblumentritt]

As a tube amp designer and builder, there is no single tube amp feel. For example, a 5E3 tweed Deluxe, an AB763 Twin Reverb, and a Marshall 2204 all feel and respond in significantly different ways.

For that matter, one amp can feel differently depending on the rectifier. I had a guy test a Texas Tone 30, which had a 5AR4 tube rectifier. I typically use more power supply filtering than a BF Fender. This guy told me the response was too "snappy". He wanted a looser feel. The easy fix was a 5U4 rectifier tube. A 5AR4 may drop B+ about 10V and a 5U4 more like 40-50V, and introduces more "sag".

Also, how you play affects how a tube amp feels. Ideally, you will find the amp's "sweet spot," where the amp is just on the verge of breakup. At that point, you can pick the strings harder or softer and get a completely different response. That point will vary amp to amp. The sweet spot on a Texas Tone 12 is with the volume close to the 3 O'clock position, or even maxed out. The sweet spot on the Texas Tone 30 is more like the 11"O'clock position. It varies as to the desired feel, and the pickup output and the guitarist's picking style.

I use Roy Buchanan as an example. He played a 1953 Telecaster into a '70s Fender Vibrolux Reverb (40W, 2 x 10" speakers), with not pedals. He ran the Volume, Treble, and Bass all at "10" and added a touch of reverb (2 to 4 on the dial). He then controlled the volume, tone, and breakup with his guitar controls and his picking attack. This allows the natural distortion and volume swells that he was known for.



2:07-2:15 mark, and especially the2:30-2:45 mark