What is the tube amp feel? (Organic tube feel vs Sterile Digital Feel)

[StuH]

I've slightly changed my opinion (modelers aren't there yet) on this after talking to Northernguitar for a bit. My main original beef that the mojo feels unnaturally responsive to the playing, and a not stated opinion that only a few of the clean amps sound good.

There is no doubt that the modelers are becoming better year after year. A 16 bit amp and cabinet modeler doesn't sound anywhere as good or convincing as a 24 bit amp and cabinet modeler with impulse response technology. So unless I am willing to try the latest tech, I can only speak with bias. It also occurred to me that some of that "unnatural response" could be related to delay in my signal with the software based modelers. Again, I am using an older machine.

So my personal experience with the modelers has been software based modelers used on a fairly old computer desktop, or hardware based modelers that are a couple of generations out of date like a BOSS GT 100, or version 1 of the Fender Mustang modeling amp.

I'm looking at trying out the Boss IR 200 recommended by Middy and Northernguitar or maybe the Strymon Iridium because I'm a fan of their pedals. I'm still expecting that my opinion will be somewhat the same ...."not quite there yet but alot better than the last batch".

 

[JPWFaith58]

18 pages and counting. Geez - when do you guys ever find the time to actually play music?

 

[David Menke]

18 pages and counting. Geez - when do you guys ever find the time to actually play music?

Phone or Kindle, laptop, bathroom time Also breakfast time! or lunch sitting at the table, no grease or mess on the instruments.

 

[Swirling Snow]

Sorta by definition, "modelers" are just copies of "the real thing". I want to play a digital amp that's better than a tube amp!

 

[MilwMark]

The other thing I can never figure out in these threads.

Why is it comforting - rather than discouraging - to conclude that satisfying [insert here - tone/feel/whatever] can only be accessed from certain apparently magical (?) technology platforms?

 

[MilwMark]

And another not-really-random question. Ok maybe 2, but related.

What volumes are y’all playing at? And in what contexts? Because IME 95-105 dB cures a lot of tonal/feelz “ills”. Even more so in a band or recorded mix.

Conversely, below about 90 dB it is just hard to find the right dynamics, fullness and sparkle, IME. Though, perhaps ironically, me, that is precisely where modelers fit and work best in replicating what lack of air takes away.

 

[printer2]

Not the height of modelling technology I retried a Blackstar ID Core tabletop amp. I sort of got an acceptable clean sound, tried for a mild clipping (at a lower level using the master) and it had no feel to it. Mind you, I did not like the distortion they have either. The crunch setting not great either. Do not like their IFS tone shaping knob. Would like a basic bass and treble better, the reverb is not too bad. I got the amp for free, the power jack was broken on it. Otherwise I like the Frontman 25R (although bigger amp) better, even with its mediocre speaker. I am building a tube Blackstar sized amp but am unsure which output tube to use yet. Of course the Blackstar and Frontman will not be comparable to the tube amp, I am thinking of putting in two setting in the power supply, a stiff and a saggy one. Just to give a different feel when I want it.

 

[msalama]

when do you guys ever find the time to actually play music

Dunno, I just post something idiotic while having a break from the noodling when I'm home. You?

 

[hopdybob]

If you like the way a SS digital amp sounds then good on you. Tube amps are more upkeep and good tubes are getting harder to replace.

If you can’t hear a difference, then SS is the way to go.

correct me if i am wrong, but does Joe Bonamassa use some kind of power stabilizer to make sure it sounds like he wants it to sound? i read that about Hammond organs to that travel to country's with 230V
so may one say that a tube amp sound will change by tubes getting older and powerline differences?

if that is true i think a SS ore modeler is more stable in performance.

 

[eclecticsynergy]

And another not-really-random question. Ok maybe 2, but related.

What volumes are y’all playing at? And in what contexts? Because IME 95-105 dB cures a lot of tonal/feelz “ills”. Even more so in a band or recorded mix.

Conversely, below about 90 dB it is just hard to find the right dynamics, fullness and sparkle, IME. Though, perhaps ironically, me, that is precisely where modelers fit and work best in replicating what lack of air takes away.

▲ ▲ ▲ This.
There's trying to model a recorded sound.
And then there's trying to duplicate the feel of amp-in-a-room.

I've often said today's modelers are getting pretty darn good at the first, but not for the second. Yet.

Still, if you forget about imitating speaker response with IRs and just plug a good modeler into a nice powerful solid state power amp pushing a good 4x12, at stage levels with a band you'll get a lot closer to tube amp feel than some might expect. Certainly a night & day difference from going direct in, using an IR, and listening through headphones or studio monitors - even loud ones.

That said, IMO there's still a certain interactive-yet-slightly-unpredictable magic in the feel you get playing with hot tubes. Wild electrons vs tame ones.

 

[Swirling Snow]

This thread will continue until the 'Next Great Breakthrough', at which point everyone's digital gear will be obsolete and the tube guys will be going, "Told you so!!"

 

[Blrfl]

Still, if you forget about imitating speaker response with IRs and just plug a good modeler into a nice powerful solid state power amp pushing a good 4x12, at stage levels with a band you'll get a lot closer to tube amp feel than some might expect. Certainly a night & day difference from going direct in, using an IR, and listening through headphones or studio monitors - even loud ones.

This is why I throw the BS flag on the "feel" comparisons thing: most of them are apples-to-supension-bridges comparisons. What you suggest (flat amp with the modeled physical cabinet) would be better, as would the opposite (same physical amp, cabinet and microphone in an iso box and both monitored the same way).

The only modeling product I can think of that could come close to recreating the amp-in-a-room feeling is the Boss Waza Air headphones. Boss gets very tight control over the results because the output can't go anywhere other than your ears and they have a feature that repositions where the amp is as you turn your head.

That said, IMO there's still a certain interactive-yet-slightly-unpredictable magic in the feel you get playing with hot tubes. Wild electrons vs tame ones.

Better modelers offer an awful lot of user-tunable amp parameters (sag, hum, ripple and bias on the Helix, more on Fractal's products). There's no technical hurdle to making those models less-predictable by making those parameters or others drift randomly; if it can be done with wow and flutter in a tape delay model, it can be done in an amp model, too. I can understand why they don't: if you've dialed in a sound you like, that's the sound you like and there's no need to record a dozen takes and pick through them to find the one where the gods of randomness smiled just the right way. (I can also understand the merits in that.) If the manufacturers won't do that, it would be trivial to write a computer program to make it happen via MIDI.

 

[middy]

▲ ▲ ▲ This.
There's trying to model a recorded sound.
And then there's trying to duplicate the feel of amp-in-a-room.

I've often said today's modelers are getting pretty darn good at the first, but not for the second. Yet.

Still, if you forget about imitating speaker response with IRs and just plug a good modeler into a nice powerful solid state power amp pushing a good 4x12, at stage levels with a band you'll get a lot closer to tube amp feel than some might expect. Certainly a night & day difference from going direct in, using an IR, and listening through headphones or studio monitors - even loud ones.

That said, IMO there's still a certain interactive-yet-slightly-unpredictable magic in the feel you get playing with hot tubes. Wild electrons vs tame ones.

Why is everyone stuck on using guitar speakers? The beauty of modelers is being able to sound like any rig, speakers included, through any monitor, in ears, floor monitors, studio monitors, pa speakers, etc. and not have to tote speaker cabinets around.

 

[Greenmachine]

<Insert moderate view of tube vs. modeling amp debate here.>

 

[tfarny]

This thread will continue until the 'Next Great Breakthrough', at which point everyone's digital gear will be obsolete and the tube guys will be going, "Told you so!!"

That is a very 1990s take on the state of the market, disconnected from how this stuff works these days.

For example, Helix, the modeler I'm familiar with, is 8 years old now and going strong.
A few months ago, they put out a very significant "breakthrough" update over the internet - for free, compatible with all of their current products. Took me a few minutes to upgrade and blammo, "breakthrough" achieved, cost of zero, same digital gear just more useful. then last week they introduced a few more amp models and a new fuzz pedal. Also free.

I am sure that one day they will introduce new hardware again, and I'm curious to see what that will be, but old hardware doesn't become obsolete overnight anymore with the release of a new product.

 

[Becks Ashtray]

Not everyone has the technical knowledge to describe what happens inside an amp, so it becomes a "feel" thing. This is nothing unique to guitar players. For instance, people will talk about how different cars "feel" when driving. Basically, any physical action you perform to obtain some kind of response from an object can be experienced as a feel thing. It is a prefectly legitimate term.

I'm playing a note with my fingers resulting in sound from the amp, so I experience it as a feel thing.

I know a few things about tube amp circuitry, and I still experience the difference in "feel" between tube amps and SS/digital. I have not tried to analyze it in technical terms (and I don't know enough about SS and digital technology to do it).

For me, most of the difference in "feel" lies in the attack and how the amp responds. For instance, playing SS amps often feels to me like playing with light strings. When you start digging in they bottom out, they have nothing more to give. No matter how hard you hit them they just go "ploink".

I record quite a lot, and 95% of the time I use Amplitube. It is easy to get a good sound that sits fine in a recording in 10% of the time it would take to obtain the same sound with real amps, mics, etc. But it sure doesn't feel like playing a tube amp.

I have found that it is the pre-amp section that imparts the most sonic character to the overall guitar tone.
The Pre-amp colours the sound by increasing the weak voltage coming from the passive pick-ups on the guitar.
The power amp section then increases the current or power of the pre-amp signal so that the speakers can be driven effectively. The power amp section doesnt impart too many tonal characteristics to the final sound.

This is the main reason I use hybrid amps, that have a vacuum tube pre-amp and a solid state power amp section.

Ultimately, much of the tone comes from the pick-ups, the guitarist's playing technique and individual idiosyncrasies etc. (see Jeff Beck)

 

[Twang Deluxe]

Tube amp sound = buzz, hiss and ticking tremolo

 

[middy]

Tube amp sound = buzz, hiss and ticking tremolo

Don’t forget, all the treble is hitting your calves, so nobody can hear how sloppy you are except the audience.

 

[Tim S]

There's no technical hurdle to making those models less-predictable by making those parameters or others drift randomly; if it can be done with wow and flutter in a tape delay model, it can be done in an amp model, too.

On behalf of the IT-geek members reading this, that’s “pseudo-randomly”.

And now back to your regularly scheduled thread…

 

[printer2]

I have found that it is the pre-amp section that imparts the most sonic character to the overall guitar tone.
The Pre-amp colours the sound by increasing the weak voltage coming from the passive pick-ups on the guitar.
The power amp section then increases the current or power of the pre-amp signal so that the speakers can be driven effectively. The power amp section doesnt impart too many tonal characteristics to the final sound.

This is the main reason I use hybrid amps, that have a vacuum tube pre-amp and a solid state power amp section.

Ultimately, much of the tone comes from the pick-ups, the guitarist's playing technique and individual idiosyncrasies etc. (see Jeff Beck)

But what about power tube distortion? Have to let that sucker breath man.

Actually there is a lot happening in the power amp section if you drive it hard. In amps like the Tweed Deluxe and the Marshall 18 Watt the preamp sections stay clean by the time the output section starts clipping. And then there is the low dampening factor of these amps (and other non-NFB amps) compared to the higher dampening factor of SS amps. Mind you with mixed mode NFB (current feedback introduced to reduce the dampening factor) you can get the bass resonance and the rising treble thing going.