So there was recently a small debate on another thread where amp modeling users claimed a few things when I brought up that amp modeling isn't quite there yet, to give us the true feel of playing through a tube amp.
The claims were:
A.) "I don't care because I'm 100% happy with my modeler" implying that a tube amp feel doesn't exist because they don't care about it. The usual, if I choose not to believe it, it must not be true.
B.) "My modeler is so good that I'm not sure if what I feel is a tube amp or not, so what if I'm feeling it?" Implying that modeling has fully captured the feel and compressive attack of the tube amp it was based on.
C.) "What is 'Tube Amp Feel' exactly? If you can't explain it must not exist" I shy'd away from this and cringed a bit as I knew already where this was going.
My solution was to post a YouTube video, which later I was scolded for by the usual condemning replies. It wasn't pretty, I was held up to slaughter and was crucified for such a small thing. It just went downhill from there...
The video I posted:
Of course, as this was in the sub-forum that belongs to modeling users, I got torn apart and troll'd. When I asked why, it was a thing of "We don't know what you're talking about, everyone is fine" but as you'd suspect, everything from gear to my YouTube channel was being brought up in a negative light. My intention was never to antagonize the amp model users - and I consider myself neutral in the tube vs solid state vs modeler world. I literally use all of them and love each for different reasons. Also, not trying to be the victim, I've been troll'd much worse by people on gaming/video games forums who would go to the extent of photoshopping pics of my face. This is nothing new to me, based on a couple comments, people create a false reality and then the usual responses imply that I don't have the job, gear, or experience that I claim.
Anyway, enough about the petty drama, I was hoping that you guys could chime in on here and tell me in your own words what the tube amp feel is, how solid state and modeling amps/pedals don't give you the same feeling and why they won't ever capture that. I think, personally we've got to a good place, however there are major drawbacks to modeling that need major improvements. Universal Audio's amplifier series comes closest to the real thing, that's probably why being a one amp pedal model costs more than multiple amp pedals.
Please share your thoughts on Tube Amp Feel, what you think needs to improve in models, how long before we get to true tube amp feel? Will models ever produce a realistic feedback and overtones? I can't discuss this in the modeling amps sub-forum as it seems to trigger members so I thought it would be better discussed here.
Thanks in advance!
What is the tube amp feel? (Organic tube feel vs Sterile Digital Feel)
- Thread starter ABetterTelePlayer
- Start date
ABetterTelePlayer
Tele-Holic
Thanks bro, appreciate that. If only my parents felt the same! Lol
That sucks! I rarely hear of Line6 products breaking, they are usually dependable and quite a few people around these parts still own a Pod Live XT and similar era products that function perfectly. Roland solid state amps are great, always dug the JC120 but only got to play on it for a few. I hear good things about the Cube.
I think the strength for Solid State amps is really the clarity and if you are playing clean and looking for a perfected pedal platform, then solid state/modeling amp might be the way to go. This is especially true because Tube amps are, as such has been said, unpredictable by force of breakup and initial gain stage separation. In other words, solid state excels to stay clean because it's programmed to do so.
My next amp, I'm thinking might be the Tone Master Deluxe Verb or Tone Master Princeton to have a good pedal platform amp with options but not too many options that would make the amp look somewhat silly.
G Stone496
Tele-Holic
My brief experience with modelers was the POD, the kidney-shaped one. I played it through the Fender acoustic amp and it was ok. It gave me choices, and I learned that the the BF Deluxe is one of my favourite amps.
However, it just died one day. I will probably not buy any more Line 6 products.
Since then, it’s tube amps for me, and one SS (Vox Pathfinder 15R).
I‘m not saying I won’t consider modelling amps again, because they keep getting better.
True, but the aforementioned Cube models breakup pretty well too, and even reacts to overdriving the front end with a boost pedal like a tube amp would(ish). It's not 100% accurate, but for such an old amp, it does its job admirably well regardless. And these can be had for a pittance these days!
Refugee
Friend of Leo's
Man, it's funny what type of imagery can pop into your head at times. When I read this, I thought of Sqiddly-Diddly on a massage table getting worked by two naked Thai girls, LOL. IDK, is that weird?
ABetterTelePlayer
Tele-Holic
Now that the dust has settled, I feel like the air has cleared and my lungs can breathe again. So I just wanted to say that, I made this thread original because I thought it would prove a point (my point). I realize now that it actually was because I was angry at the moment.
I thought it would make me feel better but.... It didn't. As time passes by, I keep the debate going and hoping I could get the feeling of "the win". And did I ever? No. In fact it was the opposite. And I can say I was a jerk. None of you deserved the stress just because I was unhappy.
This is a public apology because I feel I need to grow a pair, man up and make an apology. All our members on this forum are great, moderators do a great job moderating and this thread was a horrible idea but at the same time I'm thankful for y'all. You guys are truly amazing musicians and very humble. All of you.
Sorry again. See you in the nex
I thought it would make me feel better but.... It didn't. As time passes by, I keep the debate going and hoping I could get the feeling of "the win". And did I ever? No. In fact it was the opposite. And I can say I was a jerk. None of you deserved the stress just because I was unhappy.
This is a public apology because I feel I need to grow a pair, man up and make an apology. All our members on this forum are great, moderators do a great job moderating and this thread was a horrible idea but at the same time I'm thankful for y'all. You guys are truly amazing musicians and very humble. All of you.
Sorry again. See you in the nex
robinrockus
Tele-Meister
It’s not a feel or sound. It’s science. All modeling amps are digital. A guitar is an analog instrument. Even an electric one. In order for you to hear any sound, it must be analog, because your ears and brain are analog. Ergo, the sound you hear from any digital device, phone, computer, or modeling amplifier, the analog sound is converted from analog to digital and back to analog. In that conversion process, sound (which occurs in wave form) loses the beginning and the end of the wave form because digital is computer numbering of zeros and ones. So the sound wave gets chopped off and converted to numbers/digital then back again. So the sound wave/note is no longer a curved wave, but a squared one. A tube amp,( or even a transistor solid state amp) more faithfully reproduces the sound wave curve, or note(s) that you hear. So, when you turn a tube amp up, the distortion is rounded, and more pleasing (subjective!)to the ear. This concept can also be applied to photography. An analog camera with film that is properly developed will almost always take a more accurate picture than a digital camera or phone for the same reason. Light, like sound occurs in wave form. But even an analog camera doesn’t reproduce the curvature of the universe! So all photographs are distorted because you’ve taken an image of the curved universe and made it flat! That’s why almost everyone looks fat in pictures. Cheers! But don’t take my word for it. Look it up. It all makes sense when you think it through.
This debate always baffles me. Because it is much harder for me to find gear that doesn’t allow for great dynamics tbh. Tube, analog SS, digital. For me dynamics is loud/soft with gradations between. Same for crunchy/clean. Plus tonal changes and even playing with the transient and the character of delay (distinct v wash)
I’m a minimalist so I use MV amps. Base tone is good and crunchy from the amp. One pedal to get louder. One to repeat myself. One for wiggle. That ends up being a pretty versatile setup. My whole sound and technique relies on using my hands, my guitar volume knob for dynamics. It’s all there in my old Roland JC77 or in my newish Hot Rod Deluxe. Which I use about interchangeably.
Maybe those aren’t cork sniffy enough but I tracked our last album through the studio’s CRANKED early SFDR and then re-tracked everything their REALLY cranked early 212 JCM800. Both in iso rooms down the hall thank goodness. Dynamic response was great. And no different than my normal rig. At home I just use a Katana 100 head through the internal 6” speaker. Because the sound is close enough and dynamics are functionally equivalent to my live rig.
Maybe I’m just lucky? Maybe my ears and hands suck? I don’t know. Now that I know how to play and what I want a rig to sound like and feel, I can usually get pretty close with just about anything TBH. I try not to overthink this stuff anymore.
I’m a minimalist so I use MV amps. Base tone is good and crunchy from the amp. One pedal to get louder. One to repeat myself. One for wiggle. That ends up being a pretty versatile setup. My whole sound and technique relies on using my hands, my guitar volume knob for dynamics. It’s all there in my old Roland JC77 or in my newish Hot Rod Deluxe. Which I use about interchangeably.
Maybe those aren’t cork sniffy enough but I tracked our last album through the studio’s CRANKED early SFDR and then re-tracked everything their REALLY cranked early 212 JCM800. Both in iso rooms down the hall thank goodness. Dynamic response was great. And no different than my normal rig. At home I just use a Katana 100 head through the internal 6” speaker. Because the sound is close enough and dynamics are functionally equivalent to my live rig.
Maybe I’m just lucky? Maybe my ears and hands suck? I don’t know. Now that I know how to play and what I want a rig to sound like and feel, I can usually get pretty close with just about anything TBH. I try not to overthink this stuff anymore.
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bottlenecker
Poster Extraordinaire
Dynamic response means you can change your sound with your playing technique, but maybe not in the way someone else wants to change their sound. One person's idea of dynamics is louder/softer, another's is dirty/clean, but that's oversimplifying. I don't have words for what I want to hear because I don't understand it well enough, but I know it when I hear it.
I wouldn't dis a roland jc or hrd, but I wouldn't choose them either. They're not the right type of amp for me. I'm mostly playing a pro jr right now, and it doesn't even have a cork to sniff, but it's from my neighborhood and it gets me. I don't even think it's a twist off. It's box wine.
To me there are different types of “feel”. Essentially we are talking about how our amps respond to our actions and how we adjust (consciously & unconsciously) to get the sound we want.
I have analog SS amps, digital modeling amps, MV tube amps & a non-MV tube amp with a built-in Ironman II attenuators. Each offers me, in their own way, dynamic feedback in terms of volume and overdrive.
All that said, I recently got a 0.5w tube amp where I can get unattenuated power tube overdrive at (somewhat) home-friendly volume and it offers yet another type/level of “feel”.
In my experience, I get “feel” from all types of guitar amps (if they are well designed). But I were accustomed to only one type of “feel”, then any amp didn’t offer that particular type of feel might seem lacking.
I have analog SS amps, digital modeling amps, MV tube amps & a non-MV tube amp with a built-in Ironman II attenuators. Each offers me, in their own way, dynamic feedback in terms of volume and overdrive.
All that said, I recently got a 0.5w tube amp where I can get unattenuated power tube overdrive at (somewhat) home-friendly volume and it offers yet another type/level of “feel”.
In my experience, I get “feel” from all types of guitar amps (if they are well designed). But I were accustomed to only one type of “feel”, then any amp didn’t offer that particular type of feel might seem lacking.
Swirling Snow
Tele-Afflicted
It was common to get customers accustomed to a certain scale length (brand) who were really bothered by a change. Because I worked on and thus played all the guitars in the store, I never thought twice about scale length.
Red Ryder
Friend of Leo's
I finally decided to feel my tube amp. It was sticky yet greasey, then I remembered I had spilled beer and dropped some tacos on it.
Uh, you are wrong about how the digital conversion works it seems. The "square" waveform is filtered to produce 'a curved wave'. Look at a guitar wave on an oscilloscope, sample it in a modelling amp and with the amp set clean the exiting signal will be a curved wave. Distortion rounded coming out of a tube amp? Seems even in the analog world you are misinformed. Part of the reason may be the BS that is repeated many times about tube amps having 'rounded' distorted output and SS amps clip squarely (which they do). Tube amps also square up a signal when run into distortion. Sometimes it can even get pretty ugly, as an example a Marshall 18 Watt.
cousinpaul
Friend of Leo's
@MilwMark> Give yourself some credit. IME, dynamics is something that the player brings to the table.
David Menke
Tele-Meister
Everyone likes good breathe especially when close: altoids rule the pedal board!!I practice on my acoustic or straight to amp most of the time. Pedalboards do take small frequencies from tone and some pedals change tone drastically, but so does the cord going straight to the amp with no pedals.I use Monster gold tip cables - I'm old school.
I've heard many assumptions that people who have the money to buy large pedalboards depend on effects, that assumption is always laughable.
I think people don't hate the sound of their amp, they just like pedals. The sound of a Klon or tube screamer generally isn't the overdrive that's included in a tube amp but then again my pedalboard isn't exactly cheap and I do not use FX loop. Here is what I use with my tube amp:
*Nevermind that the pics are screenshots and have someone else's name, these pics aren't google grabs at all. I am the owner, I promise*
Lester Paulbanez
TDPRI Member
Tube amp tone has a three dimensional quality that isn't replicated in the modeling amps I've tried in guitar stores. I don't know about the more expensive modeling amps.
Blrfl
Friend of Leo's
Could you define that for me?
I'd like to understand the physics of how an amplifier with a single speaker can do anything like that.
Swirling Snow
Tele-Afflicted
Quality: a peculiar and essential character, or nature.
2D, 3D, I want to know how we get the sound of an entire 101 piece orchestra to come from a flapping piece of cardboard.
David Menke
Tele-Meister
Can you tell the difference listening to a CD or Downloaded music file as compared to a Record? Music is the same, and performance. Same recording, just different way to experience it.
If you cannot tell the difference, don't worry, your hearing may be impaired, or it really does not matter to you, so get a solid state or tube amp and just PLAY your GUITAR!
