What is the tube amp feel? (Organic tube feel vs Sterile Digital Feel)

[ABetterTelePlayer]

So there was recently a small debate on another thread where amp modeling users claimed a few things when I brought up that amp modeling isn't quite there yet, to give us the true feel of playing through a tube amp.

The claims were:

A.) "I don't care because I'm 100% happy with my modeler" implying that a tube amp feel doesn't exist because they don't care about it. The usual, if I choose not to believe it, it must not be true.

B.) "My modeler is so good that I'm not sure if what I feel is a tube amp or not, so what if I'm feeling it?" Implying that modeling has fully captured the feel and compressive attack of the tube amp it was based on.

C.) "What is 'Tube Amp Feel' exactly? If you can't explain it must not exist" I shy'd away from this and cringed a bit as I knew already where this was going.

My solution was to post a YouTube video, which later I was scolded for by the usual condemning replies. It wasn't pretty, I was held up to slaughter and was crucified for such a small thing. It just went downhill from there...

The video I posted:



Of course, as this was in the sub-forum that belongs to modeling users, I got torn apart and troll'd. When I asked why, it was a thing of "We don't know what you're talking about, everyone is fine" but as you'd suspect, everything from gear to my YouTube channel was being brought up in a negative light. My intention was never to antagonize the amp model users - and I consider myself neutral in the tube vs solid state vs modeler world. I literally use all of them and love each for different reasons. Also, not trying to be the victim, I've been troll'd much worse by people on gaming/video games forums who would go to the extent of photoshopping pics of my face. This is nothing new to me, based on a couple comments, people create a false reality and then the usual responses imply that I don't have the job, gear, or experience that I claim.

Anyway, enough about the petty drama, I was hoping that you guys could chime in on here and tell me in your own words what the tube amp feel is, how solid state and modeling amps/pedals don't give you the same feeling and why they won't ever capture that. I think, personally we've got to a good place, however there are major drawbacks to modeling that need major improvements. Universal Audio's amplifier series comes closest to the real thing, that's probably why being a one amp pedal model costs more than multiple amp pedals.

Please share your thoughts on Tube Amp Feel, what you think needs to improve in models, how long before we get to true tube amp feel? Will models ever produce a realistic feedback and overtones? I can't discuss this in the modeling amps sub-forum as it seems to trigger members so I thought it would be better discussed here.

Thanks in advance!

 

[schmee]

There is a "richness" to it. It's a "voice". Just like Rod Stewart or an opera singer can sing the same note dead on, that doesn't mean they sound the same. Speakers can be much the same. Have a "voice" of their own.
A person may like the clean, flavor free sound of a digital note. Or one may like the voice that comes out of another amp like a tube amp.
EVERYTHING makes a different sound to some extent. A metal pick makes a huge difference in sound compared to a plastic pick. Other things only make a small nuanced difference.

 

[Boreas]

Different devices - different sounds. A modeler can only do what you ask it to do. A tube amp is rarely precise and predictable. 8 isn't just a louder version of 6 - it is a different tone and timbre altogether. Modelers will typically model an 8 tone for instance and make it louder or quieter. And then consider attack and dynamics differences between the two devices. I find dynamics lacking in modelers - again, just more or less volume of the same tone.

The Fender Tonemaster processors are a little closer to the organic nature of tube amps, but I doubt they can ever match what goes on inside those imperfect tubes.

 

[Pcs264]

This is a brave post indeed and a very reasonable set of questions. I do think a bit of self-reflection would be good for the OP and perhaps to provide a cleaner context. "I consider myself neutral in the tube vs solid state vs modeler world" and "I was hoping that you guys could chime in on here and tell me in your own words what the tube amp feel is, how solid state and modeling amps/pedals don't give you the same feeling and why they won't ever capture that" seem to be pretty opposing statements! Does anyone want to hear from players who have owned / do own great tube amps, recognize and appreciate tube amp feel, AND are satisfied that their tube amp modeler provides it for them?

 

[58Bassman]

So there was recently a small debate on another thread where amp modeling users claimed a few things when I brought up that amp modeling isn't quite there yet, to give us the true feel of playing through a tube amp.

The claims were:

A.) "I don't care because I'm 100% happy with my modeler" implying that a tube amp feel doesn't exist because they don't care about it. The usual, if I choose not to believe it, it must not be true.

B.) "My modeler is so good that I'm not sure if what I feel is a tube amp or not, so what if I'm feeling it?" Implying that modeling has fully captured the feel and compressive attack of the tube amp it was based on.

C.) "What is 'Tube Amp Feel' exactly? If you can't explain it must not exist" I shy'd away from this and cringed a bit as I knew already where this was going.

My solution was to post a YouTube video, which later I was scolded for by the usual condemning replies. It wasn't pretty, I was held up to slaughter and was crucified for such a small thing. It just went downhill from there...

The video I posted:



Of course, as this was in the sub-forum that belongs to modeling users, I got torn apart and troll'd. When I asked why, it was a thing of "We don't know what you're talking about, everyone is fine" but as you'd suspect, everything from gear to my YouTube channel was being brought up in a negative light. My intention was never to antagonize the amp model users - and I consider myself neutral in the tube vs solid state vs modeler world. I literally use all of them and love each for different reasons. Also, not trying to be the victim, I've been troll'd much worse by people on gaming/video games forums who would go to the extent of photoshopping pics of my face. This is nothing new to me.

Anyway, enough about the petty drama, I was hoping that you guys could chime in on here and tell me in your own words what the tube amp feel is, how solid state and modeling amps/pedals don't give you the same feeling and why they won't ever capture that. I think, personally we've got to a good place, however there are major drawbacks to modeling that need major improvements. Universal Audio's amplifier series comes closest to the real thing, that's probably why being a one amp pedal model costs more than multiple amp pedals.

Please share your thoughts on Tube Amp Feel, what you think needs to improve in models, how long before we get to true tube amp feel? Will models ever produce a realistic feedback and overtones? I can't discuss this in the modeling amps sub-forum as it seems to trigger members so I thought it would be better discussed here.

Thanks in advance!

'Organic' is a ridiculous word to describe anything that comes from electric/electronic equipment.

A tube amp compresses the sound, can seem 'spongy', as in, the loudness can vary, based on how hard you're driving it and in some cases, it can almost sound as if it breathes when you crank it and play full chords- the sound starts and becomes louder over the next second, or so. This is often referred to as 'blooming'.

Modeling can be fine, just like any other form of copying, as long as you have nothing to compare that sound with. If you pick the setting in a Cyber Twin to sound like a '58 Bassman and you don't have a real one, it sounds very good and I heard a Cyber Twin set that way at a Fender clinic. It was shockingly good, without a reference. The reason I described it that way is because my user name shows the amp that I use but as long as there is no reference and the sound makes someone happy at the time, I don't see a problem.

That said, I'm not sure I'd buy a modeling amp because I don't need to sound like everything that has ever been made.

After dealing with electronics at a music store and for 45 years in consumer audio (stereo, AV, home theater, etc), I think that simplicity is a good thing. At this point, complex electronics is harder than ever to repair and most repair techs scratch their heads when a modeling amp comes in unless they can replace modules.

 

[hepular]

stupid answer: a tube is a light-bulb with benefits. it's burning, which means that its rate of processing is infinitesimally variable in ways that modellers strive to process-- but will only be able to model, cuz every incandescent light-bulb is its own thing.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

This is a brave post indeed and a very reasonable set of questions. I do think a bit of self-reflection would be good for the OP and perhaps to provide a cleaner context. "I consider myself neutral in the tube vs solid state vs modeler world" and "I was hoping that you guys could chime in on here and tell me in your own words what the tube amp feel is, how solid state and modeling amps/pedals don't give you the same feeling and why they won't ever capture that" seem to be pretty opposing statements! Does anyone want to hear from players who have owned / do own great tube amps, recognize and appreciate tube amp feel, AND are satisfied that their tube amp modeler provides it for them?

Here's the thing, I already claimed where I was with it on the other thread and I know that other members who were on that thread may see this one and come here and say "You said this" so I may as well put my cards out there.

For me, I'm pretty satisfied with my modelers but I feel we can and should be able to discuss the drawbacks openly without being penalized. My thing is that if you say something someone might not like the you're instantly labeled as no longer nuetral but treated with a "If you're with us, you're against us". It really is a HARD thing to balance, especially when people are so passionate about what they've spent their money on.

For me, my modelers that I own are the Universal Audio Ruby and Dream, I also own the Jackson Audio Silvertone 1202 amp modeler, then I have the Pod Go. Then I also have a Line6 Flextone III XL.

My main tube amps are the Peavey Classic 30, the Peavey ValveKing 1x12 and the Fender DeVille 4x10. Then at church it's the Fender Champ, if I'm not going direct!

'Organic' is a ridiculous word to describe anything that comes from electric/electronic equipment.

A tube amp compresses the sound, can seem 'spongy', as in, the loudness can vary, based on how hard you're driving it and in some cases, it can almost sound as if it breathes when you crank it and play full chords- the sound starts and becomes louder over the next second, or so. This is often referred to as 'blooming'.

I think people use the word organic because the tubes give "life" to the amp - I may be wrong. I do like "spongy" more though!

 

[58Bassman]

stupid answer: a tube is a light-bulb with benefits. it's burning, which means that its rate of processing is infinitesimally variable in ways that modellers strive to process-- but will only be able to model, cuz every incandescent light-bulb is its own thing.

I don't know what you do with your tubes mister, but it sounds kinda creepy.

There's more to a tube than just Voltage and neither is really burning because they're not not in an environment that would allow consumption.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

I don't know what you do with your tubes mister, but it sounds kinda creepy.

Don't worry, he's preparing the candle wax for all the modeler users. He gonna show them what they're missing out on

 

[Powdog]

If you like the way a SS digital amp sounds then good on you. Tube amps are more upkeep and good tubes are getting harder to replace.

If you can’t hear a difference, then SS is the way to go.

 

[northernguitar]

So there was recently a small debate on another thread where amp modeling users claimed a few things when I brought up that amp modeling isn't quite there yet, to give us the true feel of playing through a tube amp.

The claims were:

A.) "I don't care because I'm 100% happy with my modeler" implying that a tube amp feel doesn't exist because they don't care about it. The usual, if I choose not to believe it, it must not be true.

B.) "My modeler is so good that I'm not sure if what I feel is a tube amp or not, so what if I'm feeling it?" Implying that modeling has fully captured the feel and compressive attack of the tube amp it was based on.

C.) "What is 'Tube Amp Feel' exactly? If you can't explain it must not exist" I shy'd away from this and cringed a bit as I knew already where this was going.

My solution was to post a YouTube video, which later I was scolded for by the usual condemning replies. It wasn't pretty, I was held up to slaughter and was crucified for such a small thing. It just went downhill from there...

The video I posted:



Of course, as this was in the sub-forum that belongs to modeling users, I got torn apart and troll'd. When I asked why, it was a thing of "We don't know what you're talking about, everyone is fine" but as you'd suspect, everything from gear to my YouTube channel was being brought up in a negative light. My intention was never to antagonize the amp model users - and I consider myself neutral in the tube vs solid state vs modeler world. I literally use all of them and love each for different reasons. Also, not trying to be the victim, I've been troll'd much worse by people on gaming/video games forums who would go to the extent of photoshopping pics of my face. This is nothing new to me.

Anyway, enough about the petty drama, I was hoping that you guys could chime in on here and tell me in your own words what the tube amp feel is, how solid state and modeling amps/pedals don't give you the same feeling and why they won't ever capture that. I think, personally we've got to a good place, however there are major drawbacks to modeling that need major improvements. Universal Audio's amplifier series comes closest to the real thing, that's probably why being a one amp pedal model costs more than multiple amp pedals.

Please share your thoughts on Tube Amp Feel, what you think needs to improve in models, how long before we get to true tube amp feel? Will models ever produce a realistic feedback and overtones? I can't discuss this in the modeling amps sub-forum as it seems to trigger members so I thought it would be better discussed here.

Thanks in advance!

Glad A,B and C don’t refer to what I said. I said I’m not missing a thing.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

If you like the way a SS digital amp sounds then good on you. Tube amps are more upkeep and good tubes are getting harder to replace.

If you can’t hear a difference, then SS is the way to go.

Yeah but it's not about the sound. People on the other thread we're getting confused about that too, we're talking purely about the feels!

 

[northernguitar]

#psychoacoustics

 

[Blrfl]

(Edited out a comment I didn't intend for this post.)

A tube amp compresses the sound, can seem 'spongy', as in, the loudness can vary, based on how hard you're driving it and in some cases, it can almost sound as if it breathes when you crank it and play full chords- the sound starts and becomes louder over the next second, or so. This is often referred to as 'blooming'.

This is how you define a term. Both of those are quantifiable, measurable and model-able.

 

[MuddyWolf]

Play a couple of tube amps and find out for yourself. If you can't or won't do that, no amount of description will ever get through to your brain.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

I don't think it's a mind thing, I don't think it has anything to do with the human body. In a blindfold situation, it's easy to tell which is a modeler and which in the tube amp by feel alone. For example, you get to a certain volume and the tube amp pushes itself, you can both hear and feel the speaker about to explode and it feels as if the amp falls apart. If you completely plugged your ears and couldn't hear anything while the amp when it was in this process, you'd likely be able to feel it by how the amp vibrated and depending on your guitar, how the neck resonated.

But I think I got my answer just now. The imperfection and unpredictability in tubes is what changes both the feel and sounds and make them more lively vs the sterile processed feel of a digital amp model. That is why clipping and feedback cannot be reproduced well enough in the digital model, because the tube is doing the work vs a processor.

It's not a bad thing, if you want the completely clean platform, then Solid State/Modeling is for you. I'm grouping them together because modeling can't mimic the important little details yet - such as the feedback and correct clipping methods I mentioned.

Not to mention how amp models are just now starting to get into how the amp model should correctly interact with the effects, using as a pedal platform. Universal Audio proved this well with it's amplifier series of pedals.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

Ahhh northernguitar, good to see you! All the way from the modeling amp sub-forum

Hope you are having a beautiful day

 

[Powdog]

Yeah but it's not about the sound. People on the other thread we're getting confused about that too, we're talking purely about the feels!

Ok. If you can’t feel a difference then SS is the way to go.

If you were stone cold deaf you would never be able to tell the difference. All the tactile differences between tubes and SS are things you perceive with your ears. Howard Dumble explained that the sound difference is caused by electrons trapped in a silicon matrix as compared to electrons moving freely inside a vacuum tube. Yea.

SS amps (to me) sound like an MP3 recording, very fatiguing after a while. I respond to the tactile difference in string attack and sustain, but it’s how I hear a tube amp respond that makes me feel something. Not the other way around.

Or not…

 

[Red Ryder]

There is no right answer to the tube--solid state--digital dilemma. I just finished playing my strat. Started out on a 1971 Gibson G10 SS finished with a 1982 Kustom Studio 4 Valve. Both sound good to me. Different from each other but good. If I weren't such a crappy player they would sound great. Hmmmm maybe that's the answer to the debate.

 

[ABetterTelePlayer]

For me the thing that affects the way I play most is the actual guitar, that to me often dictates the style. When I play a strat I automatically want to play blues, when I play a Tele - country, etc.

The feeling of a pushed, crumbling tube amp definitely makes me play better. As the tubes give a lively compression, it is almost like the touch sensitivity of a hard pressed tube amp differs from a maxed out solid-state/modeling amp. Who knew! That is just my experience of years playing through tube amps and modeling amps. Who knows, some people may not like that style of compression and want a more static way of compression such as optical.