What do you think this is? (52 content)

Discussion in 'Vintage Tele Discussion Forum (pre-1974)' started by Trumpetvest, Apr 13, 2015.

  1. Trumpetvest

    Trumpetvest TDPRI Member

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  2. jayyj

    jayyj Tele-Afflicted

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    I'd put up an immediate red flag just in the text given the value of the guitar concerned. Long convoluted story, three 'expert' evaluations - none of which are given by name - to confirm it's an original with changed pickups but 'his heart's not in it' so he's going to let the Ebay community decide start it is.

    If I were a devious sort trying to make a buck on a fake guitar, this is pretty much exactly what I'd write: vague chunk of meandering text about having been taken advantage of in the past and just wanting to do the right thing to give the impression that the seller is a soft touch, just enough bait to get some over exited bidding and drive the price up, just enough doubt expressed that Ebay wouldn't consider it not as described when the seller tries to return it.

    If I were a seller who though he had a '52, wanted to sell it but had developed some doubts about originality, I'd get a written evaluation and offer it with the guitar - or even just sell it at a wholesale price to the dealer. It's potentially a guitar worth well into five figures and an afternoon's work to drop it off with a dealer to have it looked at - something you wouldn't bother do because your heart's not in it?

    You never really know who you're dealing with on Ebay and who knows if this guy is straight up, but this would definitely be a cash on collection subject to an in hand inspection for me.
     
  3. Trumpetvest

    Trumpetvest TDPRI Member

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    It does seem fishy, I should add when I said I was looking at it I didn't mean I was looking to buy, just thought it was interesting to get some opinions on it.

    I think I might have to get a few shots at the hospital to even handle that guitar!
     
  4. Tonetele

    Tonetele Poster Extraordinaire

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    What bothers me is the lack of information you got from a store in Denmark St. particularly regarding the 52 circuit. Also the pickups seem to be an issue of concern.

    If you want an expert opinion contact Terry O'Riley at twangcentralguitars.com.au

    He is a world renown expert on early Telecasters, he has a 54 blackguard himself.
    He is respected both here and in the US.
    He is also known as TerryOz on this site.

    I am NOT an agent of his just a concerned TDPRIer. I hate what is happening with
    so-called vintage guitars ( am currently looking for a Les Paul Jr. and can spot a fake).

    I am also concerned about the low price you payed. Best seek his advice, I would, before buying anything so-called vintage. Good luck in your endeavours.
     
  5. Jupiter

    Jupiter Telefied Silver Supporter

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    When I saw the pics, my immediate impression was "relic!" Maybe that's just cuz I've seen so many more relics than actual blackguards... :lol:
     
  6. netgear69

    netgear69 Tele-Afflicted

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    It is a hard one to call but it will be interesting to see how much it goes for
     
  7. Tonetele

    Tonetele Poster Extraordinaire

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    Correction, not your lack of information, the sellers.
    I also note not enough information in all respects and only three photographs.
    Such an instrument is usually dismantled, showing neck joint initials and dates.
    Full disclosure of the circuit, capacitors/resistors etc. Extensive photographs.
    Buyer beware. I still advise an expert opinion when you have more information.
    Good luck I hope it is the real deal.
     
  8. Antoon

    Antoon Tele-Holic

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    What Jayyj said. Furthermore I have no difficulty at all telling this guitar from an original 50s blackguard, even based on those few pictures. If someone is really thinking about buying this I would be happy to go over the details.
     
  9. Trumpetvest

    Trumpetvest TDPRI Member

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    Not looking to buy but would love to learn more about the differences you see.
     
  10. Antoon

    Antoon Tele-Holic

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    Are you the seller ;-)? There is lots of things. A few: there are no rounded edges on the headstock. The lacquer under the yellow (?) layer on the body is far too white. The oxidation on the metal part is iron(III)oxide (powdery brown rust) while it should be iron(II)oxide (hard black crust). No chrome pitting or separating chrome layers e.g. on tuners and other hardware. Discoloration on the back of the neck is artificial (look for instance at the color in the scratched bits, they appear way too dark, color is off, the grey stuff is rubbed in). No "donuts" around the magnet poles of the pickup (this is a new pickup). pots are new artificially rusted modern CTS pots and the switch is a rusted current production CRL, both with modern white fiberboard material used (obviously never used on blackguards). The bridge height and intonation screws are new, while these are always very worn on real old teles. Mostly random lacquer checking lines (these are almost always directional). PG and screws look new and artificially aged. All lacquer wear looks artificial (e.g. the fret board wear does not go into the wood). There is much more and there will be much more if you could have a closer look. The only part that made me look twice is the bridge plate.

    Just an average quality relic with fake pencil dates. Nowhere near what for instance Clive Brown can do.
     
  11. Trumpetvest

    Trumpetvest TDPRI Member

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    Thanks Antoon, no i am not the seller or have any intention of buying, just saw it on my usual browse on Ebay and thought it looked interesting.
    Thanks so much for time to explain things, always great to learn something new.
     
  12. Antoon

    Antoon Tele-Holic

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    There is also no body "lip" below the neck pocket and I can not see the router hump. Also are hardware is dull and in reality the hardware never loses its shine. There is only pitting, black rust and separating chrome layers. You just cannot dull a chrome surface with your fingers only, even if you keep rubbing it for 50 years. The chrome just peels of at a certain point to reveal an uneven oxidized black metal surface.
     
  13. Telemarkman

    Telemarkman Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    There is definitely a "router's hump" there. The lip on a 50's Telecaster was never really pronounced anyway.

    And I've never seen a replica/reissue with a maple truss rod plug. A few original Blackguards had though. Just saying.

    That's an understatement! I think it's quite terrible - way over the top. IF it should be the "real thing" (let's hope it's NOT), that's one of the worst cases of vandalisme I've seen.:oops:
     
  14. Telemarkman

    Telemarkman Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    It's too bad that the very few members with a profound knowledge of the early 50's Blackguards rarely visit these pages. 0le FUZZY has moved on a long time ago and Slack hasn't visited in a year's time. I'm sure Nacho Banos would know though, but he doesn't post here very often. Only when it's a great looking Blackguard.:lol: Which this definitely isn't ...
     
  15. Antoon

    Antoon Tele-Holic

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    Do you mean on the 7th picture? Maybe but I am not convinced.. The lip is definately not there. The maple plug does not convince me either. Any original blackguard has to have the rounded headstock edges and this one doesn't. The knobs seem current production as well. The flat area seems too large.

    But if you think it might be real, be my guest and go for it.
     
  16. Telemarkman

    Telemarkman Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I'm not convinced one way or the other. Just making some observations - like you do.

    Router's hump: pics 1, 7, 9 and 11

    Come to think of it; a few CS '51 Nocasters had a maple truss rod plug, so that's definitely no proof. But it's not incompatible with a 1952 Tele either.

    I just like to keep an open mind, that's all.
     
  17. BOBBRADLEY

    BOBBRADLEY TDPRI Member

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    Buyer beware!
    There is something cool about it...... If you need a really beat questionable tele :cool:
     
  18. xtrajerry

    xtrajerry Doctor of Teleocity

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    I call BS.. Like was mentioned before convoluted story with nothing to back any of it up..3 guys looked at it but he didn't get 3 written appraisals?. Doesn't want to take it apart so what did the guys who looked at it do?

    If he's not showing any kind of proof it's because he knows it won't stand up.. Low ball price is in place so some stooge can think he got over. Gonna get a fake just get a used Road Worn and tell all your friends it's real..
     
  19. Major Gruber

    Major Gruber Tele-Afflicted

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    This clear colored plug bothered me for a second, but the skunk stripe end seems to be decolorated the same way, this guitar really had a very bizarre treatment. Control cavity seems to have a flatter bottom end as it should on a blackguard. I wish I could see under the pickguard if there's any nail hole. There's one thing I feel good with, it's the string tree :lol: There's much more red flags than greens, but all this is really intriguing and I guess I could have risked to lose a thousand on this one to check by myself, but the winner already will have to put more on the table to know the news, good or bad…
     
  20. Telemarkman

    Telemarkman Doctor of Teleocity Ad Free Member

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    I tend to agree with you, Major. But if in doubt - even the slightest - I like to look at both the pros and the cons. And there ARE things that is consistent with a 1952 Tele, but that of course goes for any replica/reissue. Biggest problem is that someone did his best to make an identification harder.
     
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