What CAGED shapes for running licks?

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by slinger, Oct 27, 2014.

  1. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Well I don't know if there is a term for it...that's just what I call it.....and yes like many things it's obvious but is also useful to point out when folks aren't seeing it.
     
  2. Mjark

    Mjark Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    True, learning is always a good thing. :)
     
  3. slinger

    slinger Friend of Leo's

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  4. jmclaren

    jmclaren Tele-Holic

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    This is an excellent explanation of how the CAGED system works. The next step is to visualize how the major scale overlaps each of these chord shapes in a particular key, which also introduces basic "mode" theory.
     
  5. JayFreddy

    JayFreddy Poster Extraordinaire

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    Could you post some examples?

    I'm not trying to beat a dead horse or be a wiseguy, but I learned the 5 pentatonic forms and the 7 modal forms separately. I've known guys who use a 5-pattern template for their major scales, but I've always thought that 5 note scales have 5 patterns, and 7 note scales have 7 patterns. Forcing a 7 note scale into only 5 patterns always seemed awkward or incomplete to me.

    Just because there are 5 octave forms doesn't mean that you MUST use those as navigational beacons... It just means that you CAN.
     
  6. jmclaren

    jmclaren Tele-Holic

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    That's why I said it "introduces" the modes. The five major chord shapes in CAGED don't include the minor and minor7b5 chords in the diatonic scale. There are modes associated with those that aren't obvious when looking at the fret board from a CAGED perspective.
     
  7. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    Test 1.
    What note is on the x string, y fret?
    Examples:
    What note is on the 2nd string, 6th fret?
    What note is on the 1st string, 10th fret?
    What note is on the 5th string, 2nd fret?

    Test 2. Play the note m on the n string.
    Examples:
    Play the note F on the 3rd string.
    Play the note Bb on the 1st string.
    Play the note A on the 4th string.

    If you make a test like this, how long will it take you to answer each question, or play each note? 1 second, 2 seconds,..., 5 seconds, 6 seconds,..., 10, 15, 20 seconds?

    If your responses take less than 5 seconds, do you know the CAGED system well? If so, how is it useful to you? This is what I would like to know, above all. Is it a matter of physicality or reflex? Or is it a method for finding scales or keys?

    I've started to write this post, then decided not to, a few times during the last couple of days. There is a kind of answer that I would like to know, particularly because I am interested in reflexes (which is a separate issue than muscle memory, in my thinking). But I also don't want others here to think that I am chastising them, or that I am trying to minimize the usefulness of the CAGED system. Similarly, I don't want to seem like I am trying to sell the readers here on learning all of the notes/scales over all of the fingerboard.

    Boney, I keep forgetting your first name, so I apologize for appearing that I don't know your music as well as I actually. Anyway, from your jazz soloing, it sure sounds like you know the fingerboard really well. Actually, others here do, too: JayFreddy, Ken Lasaine, Tim Bowen, Chris S. are just a few people off the top of my head who seem to have masterful fingerboard control.

    So, to all of you, and especially the Bonester, if you know the fingerboard inside and out, what does CAGED give you?
     
  8. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire

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    As I've mentioned numerous times ...
    I 'know' what CAGED is, that it undeniably exists on the fingerboard in standard tuning but I don't use it. When I was learning I sort made up my own quasi caged system - E A D but set about learning all the notes on the FB and it's all instantaneous now.

    If I taught beginners I may use it?
     
  9. Downsman

    Downsman Tele-Meister

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    So your question, if I understand it right, is that if you already know every single note's location on the fretboard, what use is CAGED to you?

    I'd have thought you would not only need to know that, but to have also memorised every individual note in every chord formula and every scale in every key for you to be able to instantly hit the specific notes you want faster than seeing them as patterns on the keyboard, which is all CAGED is, a way to identify those patterns that are there regardless.

    As should be obvious, I'm at the still learning stage, pretty much memorised the 5th and 6th strings, but beyond that I'm trying to learn shapes and patterns to work out the rest. But while I think it would be helpful to eventually memorise the whole fretboard, I can't imagine how it would ever be quicker to play, say, an Em arpeggio starting at the 7th fret by having to think about the names of the individual notes in that and finding them one at a time, rather than just finding the root note and using a pattern that works for any key. I have a hard enough time remembering the first line in a song I wrote myself, so the more shortcuts the better.
     
  10. jmclaren

    jmclaren Tele-Holic

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    A simple answer is that you need to know the location of the notes on the fret board in order to place the CAGED chord shapes in the correct position relative to the key you are playing in. Learn where the root notes (octaves) are located in each of the CAGED chords along with the location of every note on the fret board, and you will be able to quickly adjust to any key change.

    CAGED is really a starting point to learn theory on guitar. Once the CAGED chords are learned, it's important to add the chord shapes for the remaining minor and minor7b5 chords in the major scale. When you've done that, it becomes much easier to visualize how the major scale overlaps all seven chords in a particular key. This was the technique that helped me learn how to solo over chord changes, rather than just playing a pentatonic box pattern.
     
  11. Downsman

    Downsman Tele-Meister

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    I agree, learning the remaining 4 strings should speed up the process of finding all the root notes. I currently find them on the 5th and 6th strings, and use the recurring patterns to find the rest. Also, when I think of CAGED now, it's about the concept of those recurring patterns, not just the major chord shapes I started with. So I'll gradually try adding in more chord shapes. Working through the minor ones at the moment.
     
  12. jmclaren

    jmclaren Tele-Holic

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    Not to change the subject, but I will anyway. It suddenly struck me that I'm having a conversation about my favorite hobby with an individual I've never met before, who is located on the other side of the world, and it seems like a normal, everyday event. It's amazing to me how technology has changed our lives....................Cheers, Downsman!
     
  13. JayFreddy

    JayFreddy Poster Extraordinaire

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    All of those took me less than a second each. I can see/hear/identify them as soon as my brain understands the question, so it's pretty much instant recognition. I'm not trying to brag, as I'm sure it's the same with all the experienced players here.

    I do a thing with my students where I have them draw out guitar necks in their spare time... All you need is a pencil and some paper, no special tools required. Key of C, no sharps or flats, up to the 17th fret, 2 or 3 a day over the course of a month or so.

    The patterns like CAGED and BEAD are helpful for finding notes in the beginning, but eventually you just know where they are. For me, it's not so much a "thinking thing" as it is a "doing thing"...

    CAGED isn't so much about finding specific notes... In my experience, it's more about being able to "grab" relationships between scales and chords without having to think about them.

    Like Boney said, it's a "movable nut"... For example, if I'm working off the "A form" bar chord in any key, the minor 3rd sound is under my second finger on the 2nd string, or under the 4th finger on the A string, without stretching or changing position. And without thinking... It's just there.

    It seems like some people think of CAGED as an alternative to learning the notes all over the fingerboard. In my experience, it's an addition to learning the notes... More than just notes, CAGED helps direct you to instant grips that work in a musical context.

    Here's another example: The 10th fret E string is a D note, but if you're playing a G form in VIIth position, it's on the pinky. If you're in IXth position playing an Asus arpeggio, it's a 2nd finger, maybe the 4th, and if you're in playing an E form in the Xth position, it's a root note on the 1st finger.

    So CAGED helps reinforce the locations of the notes on the fingerboard, but also, which fingers to use when playing them in a musical context. :idea:

    I have lots of students who can play scales, but the trick is to play them in a musical context... I think CAGED helps with that. At the very least, CAGED helps develop fluid grips that you don't have to think about, so your brain can focus on the music, instead of thinking about your fingers.

    I don't always succeed, but I believe the goal should be to play music with your ears. The fingers are at best a means to an end, at worst, obstacles to be overcome.

    BTW, Larry, I'm honored that you included me along with other forum members Boney (Glen), Ken, Tim, and Chris. :cool:
     
  14. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    I think this is right on the money, but for me it's working backward. I spent thirty years plunking cowboy chords three at a time down by the nut, and the fretboard has opened up for me since someone showed me the five interconnected major-scale patterns. . . . One thing at a time, I'm learning the chord patterns, octave shapes, minor scales, pentatonic scales, and intervals that reside in each one, and yes, I'm still working on knowing all the notes on the fretboard.

    I know it's important to get all these things down, but it sure tickles me, meanwhile, to be able to use the whole board, and play in any key.
     
  15. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    This is a great question. So, off the top of my head I would say these two things you mention work together....I don't think of either one as trumping the other....knowing both would be the ideal thing.

    What it seems to me that CAGED does very explicitly is it shows relationships between notes whereas knowing note names doesn't necessarily allow for that. Knowing all the notes on the fretboard doesn't mean they suddenly organize themselves into cohesive patterns in your mind.


    CAGED of course is not the only map that deals with organization. You might well ask the same question of why bother to study intervallic shapes or scales if you know all the note names....well, I would say one does not substitute for the other....knowing names and seeing patterns addresses two distinct but interactive things that support each other.

    So maybe I see these two things as being on different logical levels (I'm trying to appeal to your math brain which is much bigger and smarter than mine :D) I would say anything that reveals a pattern (CAGED, scales etc.) is of a higher logical level than any one discreet element contained within that pattern (ie. note names).

    That's the best I can come up with.....great question.....I'm still thinking about it.

    EDIT: one more...as I've stated before in my CAGED diatribes, CAGED is not a musical concept...it's just geography....note names I would include within a musical concept so they aren't of the same logical territory but they do intersect on the fretboard. I love the map metaphor....when I'm looking at a city map I don't expect to see the names of cars or people who are on the street...that would be frivolous information if I simply want to see the pattern that will let me navigate from my house to the grocery store and home again. So my guess is that even with people who expertly know where all the notes live on the fretboard they are not primarily using note names to navigate with...they are using patterns... visual, tactile etc....and CAGED could be one of those patterns.
     
  16. larryk52

    larryk52 TDPRI Member

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    I did manage to see the octaves in each shape/chord/whatever and am trying to learn the major scale through trial and error, using the octave notes. Beyond that I'm as confused as I ever was. The postings here are way over my head, I'm afraid. Still, some progress is a good thing...
     
  17. Space Pickle

    Space Pickle Tele-Meister

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    Sure it does. As soon as you know the notes the patterns become apparent. It's just like a piano keyboard - there's no CAGED for piano, the patterns and relationships between notes are obvious.

    IMO if it's a waste of time to study things that aren't musical concepts.

    This post sums up the issue I have with CAGED. It's just bad pedagogy. We play music, not fretboard shapes and grips.
     
  18. P Thought

    P Thought Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    While the patterns may not themselves be musical concepts, they open the door to much music, at least they have for me. Watching television is a waste of time. Arguing on the internet is a waste of time. Learning interconnected, moveable fretboard patterns is not a waste of time, unless guitar-playing itself is a waste of time.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2014
  19. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    1. So if I put a guitar or piano in a complete beginners hands and teach her all the note locations she will suddenly be able to play scales and arpeggios and chords? You see I don't agree that patterns suddenly assemble themselves as a result.....well I take that back...patterns may appear but it's unlikely they'll be musically useful. In fact learning note names is incidental to making music frankly...seeing/hearing/feeling patterns is far more important and useful....but I think learning note names is a good idea....but it could be considered an almost academic undertaking compared to the fundamentally critical knowledge of the patterns that make music.

    2. A great deal of the mastery of any musical instrument consists of acquiring skills that are non-musical.....technique is a word that describes how we physically interface with an instrument....so technical mastery is in large part not a musical undertaking but a physical skill...yet most of us would agree it's a useful endeavour toward playing music. I see CAGED in much the same way...it's a map of the fretboard that that isn't itself a musical concept but helps us find musical expression on the fretboard....just like learning where scale shapes, arpeggio shapes etc. are found on the board...no different. It's pretty hard to make music if you don't have a map of where to find it.

    3. If you can't see/feel patterns and shapes (CAGED or otherwise) then your ability to make music is severely hampered if not impossible. There isn't one accomplished or competent musician who doesn't use a map consisting of shapes and patterns to navigate an instrument....and the more detailed the map (patterns) is the more freedom of musical expression is possible.
     
  20. jmclaren

    jmclaren Tele-Holic

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    Well said, boneyguy.
     
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