What CAGED shapes for running licks?

Discussion in 'Tab, Tips, Theory and Technique' started by slinger, Oct 27, 2014.

  1. Erik8

    Erik8 Tele-Meister

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    Some hard rock and fusion player uses the 7-position system (3-notes-per-string) Some fusion players also use 4-notes-per-string. Maybe try these if the CAGED don't make any sense?
     
  2. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Joe Pass wrote this in 1981....it's all about CAGED without calling it CAGED....I don't hear JP's playing as that of a musician trapped and encumbered by this 'system' yet apparently it's, at least in part, how he organized the fretboard in his own mind.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. prebend

    prebend Tele-Holic

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    I just started rereading this thread and this ^^^ jumped out at me. This is really the genesis of the whole thing. The tuning stands as the axiom. Standard tuning generates 5 repeating shapes (be it open chords, octaves, whatever...). In other words the geometry of the fretboard. A different tuning (with a different set/number of distinct open string notes) represents a different starting axiom which will generate a different fretboard geometry and most likely a different number of shapes and different repeating octave patterns.

    Thanks JayFreddy.

    And starting the whole thing with C instead of B is misleading but I guess the BAGED System doesn't sound so good. Also, no one ever really plays an open B cowboy chord.

    I know boneyguy has implied much of this in what he has said, but it didn't jump out at me until I say JayFreddy's example.
     
  4. Leon Grizzard

    Leon Grizzard Friend of Leo's

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    All this. Like Klasaine, I figured out the fretboard by myself, and came up with the CAGED shapes, but with my own names. Any, or I guess almost any, guitarist who tries to systematize the fretboard is going to come up with same thing.

    I found that the most useful for me were like G at the third fret, D at the second fret and C at the fifth fret. Are those the CAE that Ken came up with?
     
  5. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Yes, essentially.
    Very quickly I added the 'stock' m7 (barre) shape to my system because it also - very visibly - functions as a dominant (type) up a 4th and a major (type) up a minor 3rd. Ex: Am7(11) = D9(sus4) = C6(9).

    Once I started seeing the cross relationships then everything exploded open for me very quickly. Another example would be realizing that the 'C' shape also has the main elements of Am7, F and even some D7(sus) in it.

    It all started to blend together at that point. Both in voicing chords and linear/melodic improvisation.
     
  6. Larry F

    Larry F Doctor of Teleocity Vendor Member

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    In my formative years, my goal was complete freedom of the fingerboard. My reasoning in pursuing this was so that I could play by ear without feeling boxed in to certain patterns or what I and others used to call "finger cliches."

    In practicing scales, I used the Bill Leavitt approach of every scale playing in every position. I don't practice scales anymore, but I am glad to have the freedom to move as I do. Did anyone else ever practice all scales in all positions?
     
  7. Ian T

    Ian T Tele-Afflicted

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    I did. When I first learned scales, I was taught 7 positions. One for each diatonic mode.

    Each position would play 3 notes per string (generally). Some of the fingerings were not really practical. It was useful practice nonetheless.

    Years later I stumbled onto Fretboard Mastery and thought "wow, this is much simpler." "I wish I would have learned this earlier."

    Simple is good. Less thought is better when it comes to playing music. That's why I like CAGED. It so easy and ties the fretboard together, vertically.

    With just a little bit of practice it's very easy to see which form you are playing in, and what other forms are available. It helps move around the fretboard more freely, particularly when comping or making large intervallic jumps.
     
  8. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Yup...spent about a year every day for hours with the Berklee stuff by Leavitt....did that to get into a jazz program in college about ONE MILLION YEARS AGO....time well spent....(although I never really got any good at playing jazz)
     
  9. klasaine

    klasaine Poster Extraordinaire Silver Supporter

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    Early on yes - a lot - all keys - all positions - including altered and 'exotic' scales. I had a 40 minute to 1 hour routine.
    I'm not so rigorous anymore (not at all, lol!) but I still do practice scales for my chops as well as my head. What I do is ascend one scale type and descend another in key (or type).
    For example, and this a good one for getting the cobwebs out of your hands and your head ...
    Ascend G melodic minor and descend Ab natural minor then continue up, A mel min - Bb nat min, etc. all the way up to the octave G at the 15th fret and then back down.
     
  10. JayFreddy

    JayFreddy Poster Extraordinaire

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    I was a slacker... I never practiced Lydian b7 above 15th position.

    There's no money up there anyway, right?! ;)

    I've noticed a lot of us seem to have different vocabulary terms... E.g., form, pattern, and position.

    It makes me think we should have a thread to discuss terms and definitions.

    I'd be happy to change my vocabulary if it turns out there are better ways to describe something.
     
  11. Downsman

    Downsman Tele-Meister

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    This has been a really interesting thread.

    I really struggled to grasp the CAGED system when I started. I could pretty much understand the how and what of it, but not the why. And without that, I never really put any time into learning it. It was only after doing a Truefire course Caged Commander a few weeks ago that it finally came together for me. As people keep saying, it isn't complex musical theory, it's just a way to describe the patterns on the fretboard that are there whether you like them or not. And on a practical level, the why, it gives you a way to slide between notes that otherwise might be on different strings, or move to different octaves that aren't found in the position you started in. And then to be able carry on smoothly from your new position.

    For me the biggest lightbulb moment was when it sunk in that there are only 12 different notes on the guitar, which cover pretty much every piece of music you've ever listened to. And usually only 7 are used in any one song, often only the 5 in the pentatonic. So for me I don't understand how anyone can feel trapped by playing in a CAGED pattern, since there are thousands, if not millions of different tunes hiding in there.
     
  12. larryk52

    larryk52 TDPRI Member

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    Interesting reading.

    Frustrating reading.

    I can move the shapes up and down the fretboard. Easy peasy. Can't figure out how to easily play a scale in a shape. I just do trial and error. These positions don't resemble the major scale I've been practicing. In fact none of them look like a scale.

    I can do the what. And the how. But no idea the why.
     
  13. Mjark

    Mjark Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    What do you mean? If you know where the octaves are, just fill in the notes in between.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  14. larryk52

    larryk52 TDPRI Member

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    Just not seeing it. As one poster said, you either see it or you don't. I tend to obsess over certain things, and although I don't NEED to understand this part of guitar playing, the little Jimi on my shoulder says I SHOULD understand it because so many good players say it's the best thing since sliced bread. And it upsets me that I can't figure it out.

    As I said earlier, I can make the chord shapes up and down the neck. So what, ya know?

    I think it's best that I continue with Justin's lessons and concentrate on being the best rhythm player I can, and forget about learning to solo.
     
  15. Downsman

    Downsman Tele-Meister

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    I think I understand what you're saying. I have the same problem in that I don't automatically see the chord shapes in those patterns. But here's the neat thing I figured out. You don't have to.

    Think of it like a bit of history. The chord shapes are what give those scale patterns their names. But you can play them just as happily if you just know there are two patterns that start with the root note on the 6th string, two on the 5th and one on the 4th. And forget that there are chord shapes in there.

    So if you know your chords up and down the neck, you know where the roots are, which gives you your starting point. Then just choose which pattern to play from there. If you remember the names of the scale patterns the word Caged tells you which pattern is just above or below the one you're playing. Which could be useful.

    Don't know if this helps. I'm not much of a teacher. I tried showing my daughter a new caged pattern the other day. She got frustrated and said she'd 'stick to the real one'.
     
  16. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    In open position (nut + frets 1, 2, 3 and 4) can you play

    1. C Major?
    2. A Major?
    3. G Major?
    4. F Major?
    5. D Major?

    That's CAGED! (Really, it should be called CAGFD.) Take C Major for example:

    Code:
    E-|-F-|---|-G-|
    B-|-[COLOR="Red"]C[/COLOR]-|---|-D-|
    G-|---|-A-|---|
    D-|---|-E-|-F-|
    A-|---|-B-|-[COLOR="red"]C[/COLOR]-|
    E-|-F-|---|-G-|
    
    Or, using scale degrees:

    Code:
    3-|-4-|---|-5-|
    7-|-[COLOR="red"]R[/COLOR]-|---|-2-|
    5-|---|-6-|---|
    2-|---|-3-|-4-|
    6-|---|-7-|-[COLOR="red"]R[/COLOR]-|
    3-|-4-|---|-5-|
    
    Move that up the fretboard (you need to untie the apron strings and fret instead of relying on open strings) and you're playing in the keys of Db, D, Eb E, and so on. That's the C shape/pattern.

    The others are the same, except that the C and F patterns are easier because they fall within 4 frets (don't require the pinky in open position = don't require shifting).

    That's the how, which might be what you call the why.
     
  17. boneyguy

    boneyguy Doctor of Teleocity

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    Everybody wants to rename it....:D

    Not sure why you're not happy with the 'E' in CAGED.... all the other shapes are open chords... but it seems to me by your reasoning, if I understand it, it should then actually be called DbBbAbFEb...there!!.....no open strings at all but really hard to pronounce....this is CAGED for 'jazz cats'? :cool:

    The beauty of the open string chords is it demonstrates a basic design of the fretboard that I call 'the moveable nut'..(the fundamental thing that CAGED addresses so clearly)....and 'E' is probably the open chord that most easily demonstrates that principle because it is the full barre that most everyone is familiar with....your index finger (in conjunction with the frets) is the moveable nut (which it is in all the shapes as they're moved up the neck)...that's how I typically teach it to younger or less experienced players....which BTW I know you are neither of those things BDLH so I'm not addressing those things to you....just 'putting it out there' in case someone might find it useful....
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2014
  18. Mjark

    Mjark Doctor of Teleocity Silver Supporter

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    It's more about hearing than seeing in my mind. Whatever you want to play.
     
  19. PapaH

    PapaH Tele-Meister

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    Lots of good stuff in this thread.

    I played bass for a number of years, and have a fairly good grasp of scalar knowledge, but I learned the instrument from using the "E, A, E+2, and A+2" method. I think this is pretty common with guys like me who came up playing a lot of rock and metal.

    What CAGED did for me when I started really focusing on my guitar playing was allow me to "chunk" the neck into 5 sections and get acclimated with using notes on the D, G, and B strings as tonal centers. I've found that a lot of country players tend to communicate and demonstrate by relating to chord shapes, so it was very helpful to me to know the basis behind it.

    Another thing to note - I look at CAGED by relating each letter to a string. I think I learned this in a Brad Carlton video on Truefire:

    C Shape = 5th string
    A Shape = 3rd string
    G Shape = 6th string
    E Shape = 4th string
    D Shape = 2nd string

    I found that by relating to the "map" this way, it was easier for me to weave in and out of position on the fly.
     
  20. JayFreddy

    JayFreddy Poster Extraordinaire

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    Interesting observation.

    That "53642" pattern definitely works, but I never looked at it that way.

    I mentioned earlier on this thread, each shape corresponds to a chord form with its root on an open string... The odd man out is the C form, which corresponds to the B string. All the other strings have a one to one correlation with their respective forms.

    C = 2nd string root
    A = 5th string root
    G = 3rd string root
    E = 6 & 1...
    D = 4th...

    Edit... Now that I'm looking at it, your "53642" pattern is the same as CAGED, just starting on the A form... :cool:
     
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