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We ain't afraid of no ghost. Are you sure?

Discussion in 'Bad Dog Cafe' started by Hey_you, Sep 27, 2020.

  1. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Which makes us susceptible to fakery, but also skeptical of the subtle and inclined to turn to confirmation bias.
    Confirmation bias is a sort of comfort blanket, swaddled in which we feel safe in our beliefs, free of challenges to our world view.

    So we have imaginative humans whose brains tell them it would be easy to bang out a body of work like those of Jackson Pollack or Neil Young.

    It's notably funny that some imaginations are the party animal type while other imaginations are more like a nun or a eunuch.
    Eunuch certainly sounds offensive, yet we have the idea of the fertile imagination, and then we have the opposite kind of imagination that gives birth to little or nothing and rejects ideas outside it's own safe zone.
    If we look at an imagination like say Einstein, who notably said "imagination is more important than knowledge", we see that science requires a fertile imagination. Maybe not the party animal extreme, but more fertile and less biased.

    Yet the most emphatic debunkers of the unknown tend to dismiss imagination as unscientific.
    Not saying you specifically, but referring to the two ends of the spectrum of human imagination, and of the polar extreme human tendency to deny the unknown.

    I often marvel at the human behavior displayed in these debates.
    And more so at how the most certain of us believe so deeply in their own total understanding of reality.
    Kind of dark ages thinking.
    I seldom see the woo curious state emphatically that those tic tacs are piloted by little green men,or that the shadow they saw out of the corner of their eye was Grandma.

    Certainty is a state of mind, really a closed state of mind.
    Of course I sound certain that uncertainty about the unproven is somehow better!
    That is not always the case!
     
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  2. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Poster Extraordinaire

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    Because there's a significant difference between debating about a god who is the eternal, omnipotent, benign creator of time and space and ruler of the universe, who is worshipped in many forms by various peoples across the world, and some dude who's haunting you because he croaked and you still owe him five bucks? ;) :D :D :D

    One has dogma, the other has dogs staring up into corners of the ceiling. Not really the same thing, y'know?
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  3. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  4. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

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    Excellent. I have been reading about "cognitive bias" lately after meeting a person whom I think suffers deeply from it. What is the difference from "confirmation bias"? It seems very similar.

    As a good friend of mine writing a book on philosophy, is leaning toward the concept of not knowing as mystical in the sense that until we know more, things unknown are only available to our imagination or discovery.

    Personally, I think there is an infinite amount of information to learn and discover. However, at the same time as we learn more, we can debunk more things as well.
     
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  5. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    There are many cognitive biases one can list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases

    Confirmation bias is one of them.

    *Everybody* has cognitive biases. Not admitting this is probably on the list!
     
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  6. BobbyZ

    BobbyZ Doctor of Teleocity

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    One if my ex-wives just knew her dead mom was playing tricks on her. She'd died in the house we lived in so she had to be hanging around. Her proof was the sliding door on the bedroom closet, sometimes it was open, she knew she closed it.
    I knew from experience any woman that married me was nuts so I just figured that was it. Then one night we're laying in bed and the closet door slowly starts to open up, time almost stood still! Holy crap she's not crazy!
    After what seemed like forever, we saw her stupid little dog pushing the damned door open. Damned thing was going in there to sleep!

    Are ghosts real? Other than that, I haven't seen proof they aren't.
    Of course I seen proof they are either.
    Guess I'm still undecided.
     
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  7. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Add cognitive dissonance to the list!

    I'd say if we are born and grow up, we will struggle with a stream of events where a cognitive dissonance drives us mad for a while.
    We start unable to connect cause and effect as we are either comfortable or uncomfortable.
    Then we find that we can exert some control over our environment, which at the beginning is maybe the only thing we "know", like that when hungry we scream and get fed.
    Next we discover that everything we thought we knew was wrong, after screaming fails to work.

    Later we love Mom & Dad except when punished or denied our wishes.
    Or a parent starts drinking too much and turns into a demonic presence when drunk and an angelic presence when sober.
    For some children a trusted parent or family member abuses us in secret, and then we are faced with the angel turned demon, plus the other family members who have always protected us, suddenly not being our protector.

    Fast forward 30-40-50 years and adults suddenly recall stuff they blocked out because the cognitive dissonance was unbearable for a child.
    The adult may learn that they repeatedly returned to a trauma place or person, without knowing why.
    That is common for those who endured intense cognitive dissonance before having the maturity to process a fact like that Dad might be a terrible man who fakes being a good man.

    Kids who were adopted might have a similar experience when they find out mom & dad were not "real parents"
    Hell what are real parents?
    And for that matter what is a good man and what is a bad man?

    Next how about what is fact in two sided situations?
    Like two cultures fighting over land?
    You hate your enemy, then fall in love with one of "them".

    Could it be that cognitive dissonance and cognitive bias stem from a primal need to pacify ourselves with little lies? like: we are safe because we live in America, we are safe because we have mom & dad to protect us, we will have a good life because we went to college, we will have a good life because we worship the right deity. We are good because we are the right color, or we are right because we are a good color?

    Well dammit we need something to believe in!
    How can we sleep at night if we fear the unknown?
    How can we believe there is no unknown?

    And if we build a life around a system of promises, then the promises fail us, how do we process that?

    Decide the whole construct was false?
    Decide it was a good construct but we must be bad and deserved a bad outcome?
    Decide that some evil foe robbed us of the goods our construct promised?

    Then we are back to hating others who are not like us, and deifying all who we consider "good".
    What is a deity in the science based non faith based mind?
    A being with the right specs?
    And where did we get those specs?
    Where did we get the specs of those who are on the other list, the bad or the undesirable?

    What do we see when we look over the fence of our construct at the rest of the world?
    Someone to blame?
    Blame is maybe a tool used to harmonize a dissonance.
    (It's well known that many of us go back and forth between thinking we are good and thinking we are bad. Blame and guilt are similar to cause and effect, in how we try to resolve what might be co-occurring conditions by deciding one caused the other. Trauma often leads to shame and guilt. We blame ourselves for the actions of others. But worship seems to lead that way too. Maybe shame and guilt are an origin, not an outcome?)

    Your comment that "things unknown are only available to our imagination or discovery" is useful here I think.
    In order to learn and make discoveries, we need to decide which stones to look under before we discover the unseen.
    Hypotheses is I suppose the method for choosing stones to turn over?
    But so is imagination, which is hard to separate from hypothesis.

    The problem with investing a lot of time imagining up a hypothesis is that an investment tends to feel like ownership.
    Ownership of a hypothesis leads to confirmation bias.
    Feeling safe might be something we sort of own and invest in.

    We can also defend our false feeling of safety, by denying all inconsistency.
    When we can no longer solidly deny evidence that challenges our construct, we get dissonance.
    Many it seems are deeply invested in fighting for realities that are poorly supported.
    The world seems churning in cognitive dissonance.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  8. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Poster Extraordinaire

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    Is this a poem? It's structured like one. I'm thinking give it a title: The New Waste-land, or Cognitive Dissonance and the Loss of Desire
     
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  9. richiek65

    richiek65 Friend of Leo's Silver Supporter

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    30 or so years ago I lived in a house where stereo controls and light switches operated on their own, completely shut doors (confirmed by testing, impossible to open unless handles were turned) opened by themselves, people were seen, and all of this was witnessed by up to 3 people at the same time. Others who lived there years later report similar occurrences and sightings. To this day i still have no explanation, apart from what might be classed as woo
     
  10. 3-Chord-Genius

    3-Chord-Genius Poster Extraordinaire

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    It doesn't matter, as we're not trying to convince anyone of anything - simply reporting what happened. It is my hope that nobody experiences the things I have. There is nothing fun or cool about it. It's pure evil.

    I would urge anyone with a fascination or interest in this stuff to walk away from it and find another hobby. It is dangerous beyond the scope of your imagination.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  11. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    Cognitive dissonance and the origin or nature of desire?

    Hell, I hadn't considered that my long interest in the origins of things might be a desire to understand the nature of things.

    The origin of things and the nature of things can't be the same, right?

    And is desire a good thing?
    Or in the end will desire only lead to loss, grief, and perceived suffering where none exists?
    My new guitar sucks so I am upset!
    I thought ABCDEF and G but didn't get what I wanted so I'm upset!
    I have food in the fridge, hot & cold running water, and am still ambulatory.
    What's not to like!
     
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  12. Guitarteach

    Guitarteach Doctor of Teleocity

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    And we can detect, generate and use those waves .. in fact we can detect things to subatomic levels to the edge of space and at frequencies low and high and far outside the realms of human sensitivity... So its pretty clear ghosts are mind images - products of faulty primordial heuristics.

    The fact they disappear when you focus on them is the clincher.. reality overwrites the imagined stopgap image your brain conjured up to help you make sense of something novel.
     
  13. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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  14. telemnemonics

    telemnemonics Telefied Ad Free Member

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    True also that eyewitness accounts of even the plainly seen, are often as much images our brain conjured up, as an accurate account of what we plainly saw.

    Yet humanity has invested in what amounts to a construct, where eyewitness accounts decide the fates of men.

    There was a professor long ago who fought against the use of eyewitness accounts, and famously did an experiment with a judge and some lawyers in a room, where he staged an attack.
    The eyewitness accounts of those trained and trusted court professionals varied in extremes, including describing the attacker as wearing a top hat and not wearing a hat, dressed in black and dressed in some other color, etc.

    The professor was fired and blacklisted.
    DNA has released many formerly convicted on eyewitness accounts.
    The mind does indeed fabricate to fill in missing info, then fails to discern between what was seen and what was imagined.
     
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  15. Guitarteach

    Guitarteach Doctor of Teleocity

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    Ghosts... in a nutshell..
     
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  16. Guitarteach

    Guitarteach Doctor of Teleocity

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    E0283941-D17C-40C1-8298-3F365C07DE4B.png
     
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  17. Hey_you

    Hey_you Tele-Holic

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    That's refered as "side-ghost" in some circles
     
  18. BigDaddyLH

    BigDaddyLH Tele Axpert Ad Free Member

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    Give them the side-eye.

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. soulgeezer

    soulgeezer Poster Extraordinaire

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    "The amplification of the eternal
    Present is the technology of desire."

     
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  20. Hey_you

    Hey_you Tele-Holic

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    Nope. Just plain ole curiosity as applies to me.
     
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