warm and inefficient speaker...?

[schmee]

low efficiency and warm is how I would describe a cts alnico 10 that was used in super reverbs-would one sound good by itself ? I don't know

I think you would find it a bit anemic and lacking low end etc. I have tried both the Weber Trucks 10 and CTS Alnico as a single speaker. Both were unremarkable.
Both were intended to be used in those 4 x 10 applications. As such, things change a lot. 4 x 10 pushes about twice the air as a 1 x 15, and simply having them setup that way creates huge bottom end/lower mids also. So as a quad the results are much different than as a single. It's kind of the beauty of 4 x 10 really, they used light weight/ light duty speakers to make the amp not too heavy, and it worked out!

 

[ruger9]

I much prefer the sound of a Pro Reverb over a Super Reverb. I just like the more relaxed attack of the 12" speakers. And a Princeton? Fuggedaboutit!

I've had a PR with a 10" greenback I loved, currently have a PR with a 12" Celestion Alnico Cream I love. The 12" has a bigger sound for sure, but sometimes I wonder if it's not a tad too much bottom... I loved the mids push of the GB, and think it compliments the mid-scooped blackface circuit well.

 

[schotter611]

Ok, glad this came up so while we're at it...due to very limited availability (used and new) of speakers I narrowed my search down to, I am stuck with either sticking two 10's (8Ohms) or one 12er (16 Ohm) into my oversized cab (could house 2x12 and more). Strictly for home use, I am trying to keep volume down and bass /midbass at a max. I know, the volume part has been discussed so from what I've heard so far the two 10s will make it appear a tad louder (which is undesired), right? So 1x12 is the way to go (the 10"versions are unavailable in 16Ohms so 1x10 does not happen).

Here's my question: With the 2x10 being louder, can I expect the 2x10 to be a bit bassier (all things being equal)? Or is a 12" generally 'rounder', thus bassier w. more lower mids?

And how does this work at really low volumes?
I think I made the experience of speakers needing a certain amount of power to even produce audible bass. Using two 10" would halve the load for each speaker, probably resulting in less bass...?

Disclaimer (in case someone brings up modellers and such for home use...): I have (and love) a Yamaha THR for real night time bedroom playing.
When I say 'really low volume' I mean halfway driven Vox AC4 1/4 or 1 watt setting, as quiet as a real tube amp can get (...my neighbours are friendly and mostly deaf...).

 

[NoTeleBob]

Jensen Mod is on the low side of efficiency and not really bright. They have curves and sound bites at their web site to compare.

 

[PhredE]

Estimating, in advance, the end result of output from a given speaker type/box/number of speakers/speaker box geometry/etc... is a tricky proposition. I'd recommend putting most of your effort into researching and dissecting the characteristics of each component, then, consider how they might work in unison to achieve the end sonic goal (or not).

There are lots of 'monkeywrenches' lurking in putting together an optimal speaker box. Just one basic example, is that there are many 10" drivers that are more efficient ('louder') than 12" drivers.
How big the box, the geometry of the box, the design of the box also strongly play into how the final output will present itself. Then, there are all the issues of how the driver reacts to the signal running into it -- magnet type, magnet size, cone construction, etc. Resistance (impedance) of course is also another factor, and depending on number/wiring, must also be considered and be able to co-exist with the amplifier powering it.

A big speaker (say, 12") in a big box will produce a rather 'large' sound -- efficiency being an extra layer of variability on top of the rest.

You might also consider an added layer 'in the middle' (an EQ pedal, a Joyo amp emulator, etc) to better tweak the EQ tone stack before hitting the amp. It sounds like you want to drive your power tubes up near max -- maybe an attentuator is a better option?

I don't use tube amps anymore (been there, done that.. too much trouble for me). But, one thing I do DO, is to use a very sweet sounding inefficient speaker to play loud at home (actually, the particular speaker I use is small -- 8", 92db -- it has a high power rating [125W] -- it's a PA type woofer speaker with an unusually scooped midrange). So, I can still make the speaker 'work' without deafening myself or the neighbors.

 

[2L man]

I am trying to keep volume down and bass /midbass at a max. I know, the volume part has been discussed so from what I've heard so far the two 10s will make it appear a tad louder (which is undesired), right?

Smaller speakers 1W sensitivity is bit less than bigger speaker when they are same type and magnet and voice coil are the same.

If you output same power to same type speakers, which difference is only diameter, it makes sense to me that 2x10 is also bit quieter than 1x12 until the 1x12 begin to compress, and it does not happen on very low volume. Quieter to your ears and db meter, even 2x10 is built concave, so that loudspeakers direct to where you place your ear or db meter. If 2x10 are vertical the loudspeakers should cancel somel vibration to downstairs thru legs.

Two 10" moving mass is heavier than one 12" which should have effect. Visit Jensentone where are many speakers which use same voice coil and and magnet and you can conpare frequency craphs and 10" graphs run more often below 12" graphs than above.

Biggest reason you should use a single speaker is that it colors the sound more using same power/volume than two speakers do.

 

[VintageSG]

The transformer used in the AC4TV amplifiers is quite happy with 8 Ohms.
A 2x10" is a joy to the ears ( well, mine anyway ), with a pair of 1x10" a very close second. It does rather raise the efficiency running a pair though.
The Jenson MOD 10-50 is a great sounding speaker, and in 16 Ohm spec, is a 94db speaker. very good treble control too. My current pair of 1x10" have them fitted, and I can't fault the sound.
Having a pair of 1x10" and getting some separation gives a great sound.
Their JET Falcon 10-40 is smooth talker too.

Note :- I am a Jensen fanboi of sorts, and I prefer a 10" speaker, or multiples thereof to 12", so make of that what you will.

 

[schotter611]

Yes, at this point I should probably experiment and leave theory behind, too many things come into play.

Plus the speakers I am looking at are actually cheap, which in fact are two 10-50s/8 (there seems to be shortage of 16Ohm Jensens around here) OR one 12-35/16. The 10ers sound more to my liking in the bass dpt (on the Jensen website) and the 12er will probably be quieter overall (but also treblier).

And yes, I also thought of just using a single 8Ohms speaker (and have more choice) as the Voxes tranny should be fine with it. But AFAIK only if you run it at the full 4W (which I won't, rather mostly the 1W and sometimes 1/4)...so not sure if I want to experiment here. Or could I (always using the volume only up til halfway up)?

However, thanks again for your input, gents, very helpful!

 

[schotter611]

sorry, double posted and deleted here.

 

[telemystix]

Tone Tubby Chicago Blue is the correct answer!

 

[Wally]

You might be interested in what this Ee did to that circuit…..the paragraphs following the VVR mod are what deal with the tone mods.
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/instruments-and-amps/314517-vox-ac4tv-modification-project.html

 

[schotter611]

Interesting! Good read and this kid can solder, which I, in turn, am not very good at.
Found a Jensen Mod10/50/16 in a neighbouring country (that's how unavailable speakers are around here!!), see how it goes...On paper it looks like a cheap GB-killer and I have high hopes!

Tone Tubbies sometimes pop up on Ebay but rarely the ones you're looking for.
Next could probably be an EQ pedal but I'd rather keep my amps clutter-free at home.

 

[Wally]

Good luck with the search.

 

[schotter611]

Just received the Mod10-50, stuck it into the cab and had a quick go. I like what I hear, out of the box. It meets my expectations (at least in regards to what a speaker can achieve...). Treble is quite 'sweet' (rolled off comparing a C10Q or even my Veteran10) and there's an emphasis on lower mids. Could also be a good speaker change for a PRRI if the treble seems too 'glassy'.

 

[ruger9]

Just received the Mod10-50, stuck it into the cab and had a quick go. I like what I hear, out of the box. It meets my expectations (at least in regards to what a speaker can achieve...). Treble is quite 'sweet' (rolled off comparing a C10Q or even my Veteran10) and there's an emphasis on lower mids. Could also be a good speaker change for a PRRI if the treble seems too 'glassy'.

That sounds great!

 

[Redleg37]

Stupid idea time.

Bass guitar speaker? The majority will be very inefficient for higher frequencies. Although some, like the eminence basslites, do 4000hz well. I put a basslite 2012 into my mustang 3 a few years ago and it sounded pretty decent for blues/jazz kind of stuff.

 

[schotter611]

not stupid. The 10-50 is also marketed as bass speaker.

 

[ratedepth]

A 2nd Veteran? Doesn't get much less efficient than those.

 

[RoscoeElegante]

I've been amazed at how velvety the WGS G10C/S 75watt speaker is. Very little spikiness to start with, a lot of really sweet mids, and the spikiness disappeared within a half hour of playing. It's not very beamy, either. Seems to fill a room from everywhere and nowhere. Best out-of-the-box speaker experience I've had.

 

[PhredE]

I've been amazed at how velvety the WGS G10C/S 75watt speaker is. Very little spikiness to start with, a lot of really sweet mids, and the spikiness disappeared within a half hour of playing. It's not very beamy, either. Seems to fill a room from everywhere and nowhere. Best out-of-the-box speaker experience I've had.

I've heard the larger counterpart (G12C/S) and was very impressed -- that was a few years ago.
I have the ET65 and really like it (after breaking in). IMO, WGS doesn't get the love they deserve.
The G12C/S is on my ToDo list when I can swing it.