You need a new drummer.
VOX AC30, more headroom!!!!
- Thread starter kevinpires18
- Start date
- Tags
- headroom vox ac30 vox ac30cc2
This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links like Ebay, Amazon, and others.
You need a new drummer.
3-Chord-Genius
Poster Extraordinaire
Oh good grief... I'll try this again:
I agree with me you need a new drummer. He's boring.
SweetClyde99
Tele-Holic
I do understand that the OP is trying to increase his clean headroom only. The point I was trying to make is that the amp is capable of being louder than it is, just not while remaining clean. It was that fact that made me think the boost in loop might work because, in my simple brain, that would boost the preamp signal and take some of the load off the power amp.
I've read that you mainly need to be concerned about using a boost in this manner if the amp is already at its maximum volume. In this case it's not already at its maximum volume, just its maximum clean volume, which are two different things.
I may still be wrong. I just wanted to clarify the point I was trying to make.
Kevin - don't go by power. It's the worst comparator when it comes to loudness. Your AC-30 is a unique and is louder than many 50 watt amps - even 80 or 100 watt ones. Most of the critical volume factors are in the electronic design, speakers, amp setup (by tech), cabinet/baffles etc. Because of the cathode bias/EL84 configuration of the AC-30 there simpoly are not "50 watt" amps that sound the same anyway. Nor 100 watt amps.
Power is not the problem.
^^^
This ONE problem. It's been named by over a dozen members.
Now you guys are thinking, but it will change his sound.
And he needs to change the impedance setting if the head has one; or check with Hiwatt (or a local tech) and determine whether he can use a different speaker tap (i.e. an 8-ohm instead of 4-ohm); or if there is no different impedance setting again check with Hiwatt or a tech to see if that specific model can handle an impedance mismatch.
Removing power tubes changes the amp's output impedance plus the amp will need to be rebiased.
BUT - if he simply turns down to your level he can still play loud and the problem is solved IF the drummer has a good sense of dynamics and ALSO adjusts. It's not significant enough to seriously change his tone - AND you will likely be louder, just reversing the problem.
As I've said - this is a band killer. Changing equipment around to alter volume levels continues the "volume competition".
Cooperation by turning knobs will...if the drummer is good...solve the problem. And if the drummer can't drop his volume while maintaining dynamics, he either needs to learn how or the band's condition is terminal. It'll never survive without cooperation. Equipment changes for volume reasons are nothing but a costly "yo-yo" that only ends because the band does. Usually soon.
Last edited:
Please read my post again regarding volume and distortion. It's already been explained how an AC-30 goes from headroom to saturation, which often *doesn't* increase the volume you hear at all - it can actually loud quieter because of how the human ear hears distortion.
You mentioned you weren't familiar with how driving an amp into distortion works - I was attempting to explain it to you. If I wasn't clear I apologize.
Additionally it would be exactly what the OP *doesn't* want. He wants an increase in clean headroom (a redundant phrase but commonly used). Pushing the amp into saturation *won't* help. Most of us are focused on helping the OP meet the goal of equalizing band volume, and respectfully, changing his sound - especially to one he doesn't want - is irrelevant in this thread.
I can tell you that those rods aren't cheap. A heavy hitting drummer will go through a pair in one jam. An electric kit is cheaper than another 212 and he can hit as hard as he wants and you can control the volume. It's a no brainer imo
SweetClyde99
Tele-Holic
I raised the subject because it seemed possible that a device, like a clean boost, intended to amplify a guitar signal without causing distortion might, in fact, amplify a guitar signal without causing distortion. If such a suggestion has no place in this thread, then you have my humblest of apologies.
I understood that raising power amp gain and preamp gain would lead to distortion. Not being intimately familiar with the finer points of the inner workings of an amp, though, it seemed possible to me that having an intermediary device between these two stages might amplify the signal and take some of the load off the preamp and power amp, leading to increased headroom and less distortion. If, as you say, that's not the case, cool. That's why I posed it as a question. I don't think it's fair, however, to say that I'm being unhelpful and that my comments have no place in this thread when you're suggesting the OP, who sounds like he's one of the newer members of his band, needs to start kicking people out of the band because his AC30 breaks up early with humbuckers. I've heard similar comments before.
And, for the record, I hope you'll understand if I let the OP decide when my participation in this thread is no longer welcome.
Except he won't want to play rubber pads.
Well then, go ahead and add more volume. Glad I'm not in your band..
Oh, and Roland make great mesh heads on their drums. Or you can use mesh heads and a set of triggers. Or you can get a pearl or jobeky kit which looks feels and plays exactly like a real kit. Anyway I'm kind of bored offering solutions that are being ignored. Go deafening yourselves, I don't really care.
kevinpires18
TDPRI Member
thanks for all the opinions, i'll try to be even more clear about what my problem is:
I'm sure my AC30 is loud. I used to be in a 6 piece band with 3 guitarists, and they had 50w heads. I always had the ac30 at 25% volume and they would complain about how loud i was. Headroom for days..
But now, Zé's (the other guitarist) clean sound is so loud that if i try to get my CLEAN sound as loud as his CLEAN sound, the only thing i get is a saturated AC30 sound that we perceve as lower in volume than his clean sound. And he has his volume knob at around 10% or less. He tries to put his amp lower but the knob is almost close to zero, you know? Like any little finger movement on his volume knob changes it from loud to zero, basically. I want us to be equally loud when clean, equally loud when be both hit the fuzz, and i still need a extra volume boost after that for the moments where i'm soloing. Our drummer is so loud that he can keep up with this ridiculous volume level, but we're not gonna change the drummer, we love him and his sound. We want him to be loud!!! He's just keeping up with what the amps are doing.
Maybe a volume attenuator for the hiwatt would give Zé more margin to equal his levels with me, and me still swapping the wharfdales for red fangs sounds like a contribution to get to the solution. I'm very unexperienced with tube amps and speakers and all, so that's why i have so many questions, but you guys have been pounding more solutions than i thought would be possible
I'm sure my AC30 is loud. I used to be in a 6 piece band with 3 guitarists, and they had 50w heads. I always had the ac30 at 25% volume and they would complain about how loud i was. Headroom for days..
But now, Zé's (the other guitarist) clean sound is so loud that if i try to get my CLEAN sound as loud as his CLEAN sound, the only thing i get is a saturated AC30 sound that we perceve as lower in volume than his clean sound. And he has his volume knob at around 10% or less. He tries to put his amp lower but the knob is almost close to zero, you know? Like any little finger movement on his volume knob changes it from loud to zero, basically. I want us to be equally loud when clean, equally loud when be both hit the fuzz, and i still need a extra volume boost after that for the moments where i'm soloing. Our drummer is so loud that he can keep up with this ridiculous volume level, but we're not gonna change the drummer, we love him and his sound. We want him to be loud!!! He's just keeping up with what the amps are doing.
Maybe a volume attenuator for the hiwatt would give Zé more margin to equal his levels with me, and me still swapping the wharfdales for red fangs sounds like a contribution to get to the solution. I'm very unexperienced with tube amps and speakers and all, so that's why i have so many questions, but you guys have been pounding more solutions than i thought would be possible
MilwMark
Doctor of Teleocity
So the drummer is just keeping up with what the amps are doing? And the amps are just keeping up with what the drummer is doing? Hmmm.
I guess the only solution is to get an Ampeg SVT or Ultralinear Twin. And a good ENT doc.
I guess the only solution is to get an Ampeg SVT or Ultralinear Twin. And a good ENT doc.
codamedia
Poster Extraordinaire
That's how I'm reading this.... "everything louder than everything else"
That a no win situation that needs to be controlled.
If they can convince him to play an electric kit, problem solved. Good luck. Did you ever play one of those? It's not like drums at all.
To clarify things for you - if an amp is already at the upper limit of clean volume ("headroom") *any* device that boosts the signal will distort the output stage. It's impossible to go beyond maximum headroom and maintain a clean sound.
Boosting a clean amp into distortion is actually what "overdrive" pedals were originally meant to do (and many are still specifically intended for this) - not to create their own distortion. They "overdrive" the amplifier from maximum clean volume into distortion. With some amps this will cause a volume increase, but in the OP's case it would be an undesirable one - he wants a clean increase, and distortion won't help.
I hope that helps clear it up.
i have one, a roland td6 which i use for home practice and for quiet pub gigs. it sounds great and i use roland v drums with tuneable mesh heads.
i also realise that me playing drums isn't about me, it's about what's right for the gig and the bands i play in - a theme that comes up regularly on this forum.
SweetClyde99
Tele-Holic
That clarification does help. Thanks. I've only ever heard of boost/overdrive pedals being used in front of the amp to distort the preamp tubes, so it's good to know that they have a similar effect on the power amp tubes when placed in the effects loop.
Whoops! Needs another clarification.
DON'T use any drive pedal...of any type...in an effects loop (there are a few styles where it works - but it's very style-specific an often done with "stacked" pedals).
Here's the thing - An overdrive pedal does not overdrive the preamp. Unless the amp is cranked, almost all OD pedals are adjusted to create their OWN distortion. Now - if you use a clean boost, or adjust an overdrive for maximum gain but NOT any internal distortion you may be able to overdrive the preamp.
But it's not a common function, and it's a buzzy, thin-sounding type of distortion.
So the best way to use clean boosts and overdrives if you want to generate distortion *in the amp* requires a couple of things: 1) a tube amp that can be cranked to the limit of headroom with a volume level that's practical (the reason smaller amps are so popular nowadays for club use and big amps are either used outdoors or for clean-only tones), 2) the amp has been dialed in for use this way. Generally, normal service by a tech to ensure everything is OK, good tubes (and in a fixed bias amp biased neutrally or a hair on the hot side) and speakers that are suitable for breakup, and 3) a boost that can add gain without its own distortion.
Then - turn the amp up to the top of headroom, play clean, engage "boost (clean boost or OFD set for gain only) - the power section of the amp will be driven into saturation, with speaker breakup *if* the volume level hits their breakup point.
The amp distortion usually gets smoother (not louder) as more gain is added to the input - so it's a huge advantage to turn the guitar from the very start, so it's at around 75-80% when the amp is at the top of the headroom. That way an OD/boost pedal can be used to "kick" the amp over the edge, and the guitar volume becomes a gain adjustment.
Not all turn the guitar down and just use one "pedal initiated" distortion tone. To me that misses out on most of the fun!
Last edited:
SweetClyde99
Tele-Holic
It does seem we've been talking past each other a bit, but at least I now see why you thought I wasn't capable of productively contributing to the conversation.
Anyway, I think using a clean boost in the loop is a fairly common practice for getting a volume boost for solos. Here's a Premier Guitar article advising doing exactly that: https://www.premierguitar.com/articles/20426-tone-tips-dialing-in-maximum-tone
Also, for what it's worth, using a Tube Screamer-type pedal with the gain (distortion) all the way down and the volume all the way up to boost an overdriven amp/pedal into further saturation is also a common practice for hard rock and metal players like myself. It tightens up the bass and boosts the mids to help all the gain sit better in the mix. I didn't have much luck doing so with a Big Muff-type circuit--it didn't get rid of enough of that low-end flabbiness for me--so that's probably not terribly helpful to the OP though.
Similar threads
- Locked
