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Victoria 35210 & Double Deluxe

Discussion in 'Amp Central Station' started by Luca, Sep 21, 2005.

  1. Luca

    Luca Tele-Meister

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    Hello guys,
    I own a Fender Bassman LTD, but I want something with less power and, more important, better tone.
    I play live but since I never turn the Bassman past 4, I was thinking that around 30 watts would be good.

    Now, I'm looking at these Victorias, and I was wondering, first of all, if their tone is so much better than the one I have with my Fender LTD.

    The 35-210 and the Double Deluxe come first in my wish list, but I have no chance to test them by person.
    Can you tell me your experiences with them please?
    The 35210 is supposed to sound its best with HB guitar, but I have a 52RI tele, so I'm a little worried.

    Thanks in advance
     
  2. laseneca

    laseneca TDPRI Member

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    Victoria 35310

    Had to play a Katrina benefit Sunday with a supplied backline. I played through a Fender Bassman RI. When I got off stage, my wife came up and said that whatever I paid for the Victoria was worth every penny. She later added it is a more sophisticated sound. I say it is more dimensional, palpable, sweet. Guitars through Vic are Brooks Tele with Bardens (Antiquities prior to Bardens), Grosh Sparkle T with Fralin P90s, and a Girl Brand. At extreme volumes the breakup is rough to my ear, but before that I have no complaints. The Vick is great for blues (my deal), old rock, and country. No metal.:)
     
  3. Luca

    Luca Tele-Meister

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    laseneca, thank you.
    Any other opinion on the 35210 or Double Deluxe?

    Luca
     
  4. Teddy Salad

    Teddy Salad Tele-Meister

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    +1 on the Vicky 35310...

    especially when using a Tele with Bardens.
    MMmmm, MMmmm good!
    Those 3x10s just have the sound.


    Teddy
     
  5. mad dog

    mad dog Friend of Leo's

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    I don't think you can go wrong with any of the Victoria choices mentioned. Heard great stuff about the double deluxe. Would love to own one, as I'm partial to the 6v6 sound.

    The 2x10 tweed setup is perfect for teles. Did lots of tweed shopping lately, expected to go with 15 inch speaker models, but really got hooked with the 10-inch models, in particular a lovely 2-hole bassman and brown super. Almost bought that super because of how good it made my tele sound. Ended up with a Clark 3x10, so I can assure you, that Vicky 35310 will do the trick. Best I ever heard for tele.
     
  6. Luca

    Luca Tele-Meister

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    Hei, it seems to me that for some reason the 3X10 Bandmaster is generally preferred over the 2X10 Super here.
    As for the Double Deluxe, I'd love it, but it doesn't have clean headroom at all, right?
    I love overdriven tones, but I can't miss a good clean for some applications.
    Thanks for the inputs, if you have others, please share them!!

    Luca
     
  7. Bob Arbogast

    Bob Arbogast Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    Consider this

    The 35210 (i.e., 5F4 Super) is quite the portable package, ceartainly easier to tote than the 35310. Not as loud as the 35310, but still has the clean voice you want to keep. A big issue that determines what you'll get out of the Super is what speakers you have in it. A pair of 30W 10A125's (P10Q) from Weber will give you a potent, cleanish amp that will grind too. And, if on occasion you want more thump and more volume, you could add a 1x12 extension cabinet.

    Bob Arbogast
     
  8. mad dog

    mad dog Friend of Leo's

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    Bob is right. The tweed Super might be the perfect gigging amp. Packs a big presence, big sound and volume, into a modest size cab, very reasonable weight. The diagonal speaker arrangement keeps the footprint low. By contrast, the brown super has a side by side layout. Longer, noticeably heavier.

    Those Weber P10Qs are WONDERFUL. I also really like Teds ceramic speakers in tweed style amps. Bet the C10Qs would sound just as good (though heavier) in their own way. His straight-cone ceramics also sound amazing. Never heard the 10-inch version, but loved the 15F150-O in a tweed Pro replica. It's all good.
     
  9. Luca

    Luca Tele-Meister

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    How about the overdriven tone of 35210 vs 35310?
    Are they different voiced? Does one break up earlier than the other?
    I currently own a Bassman LTD, it's supposed to be a dirty amp, but the sound remains clean until 6, but at 6 it makes your ears bleed and I always need an OD pedal.
    I'd love to have some clean headroom, but also to hear the natural drive of the amp.
    I agree, the 35210 would be perfect in size and weight, but I notice that the 35310, while being heavier and larger, is a lot more common among guitar players.

    I'm wondering why. :rolleyes:
     
  10. Bob Arbogast

    Bob Arbogast Tele-Afflicted Silver Supporter

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    The 35210 and 35310 are virtually identical except for the speaker complement and the size of the cabinet: the extra speaker and extra cabinet volume give the 35310 some extra thump, while also raising the breakup threshhold.

    In general, while the onset of breakup in an amp, such as a 35210 or 35310, depends on a number of factors, a key one is speaker selection. The stock Jensen P10R's will not be as loud and will break up sooner than Weber P10Q's (10A125). A Weber 10A125-O has an unribbed cone and is a warmer speaker that breaks up earlier. I have paired a 10A125 and 10A125-O in an amp and the tonal mix is glorious.

    Bob Arbogast
     
  11. racehorse

    racehorse Tele-Meister

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    35210

    I have , several times tried these side by side , and always come away liking the 210 , victoria`s are all I`ve ever heard, played /through .

    The smaller cab , 2 speakers ,has a little different midrange presence, that I prefer , even with those jensen reissues, which I don`t like .


    the electronics are identical, except for a couple resistors.

    you can always run an ext cab when necessary, but you won`t find it necessary very often.

    JMHO
     
  12. Rick S

    Rick S Tele-Meister

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    The Double Deluxe has had a lot of good reviews online and it's actually surprising to me. I would never trade a good 5F4 for one. Without getting too windy on the subject, I'll just say that I would agree with your assumptions above. The 5F4 is much, much more versatile.

    The thread seems to have drifted to comparing the 2x10" 5F4 with the 3x10" 5E7. Rob described the differences perfectly. Lots of guys think that the 5E7 is the bee's knees and I agree, they're great. With good P10R type speakers, the speaker breakup comes in just at the right point. If the amp has a proper output transformer with the saturation characteristics of the originals, everything just falls properly into place for a wonderful bluesy overdrive that's hard to beat.

    On the other hand, as Rob described, the 5F4 is very close in performance and is a much more user friendly package. It's not much bigger than a Deluxe Reverb, light and easy to handle. The 5E7 is almost as big as a Bassman, and I've found that most players go for a 5F6-A when getting into an amp that big. I don't have a 5E7 myself right now, my demo is a 5F4 and when I need a bigger amp, I use a 5F6-A. As far as popularity, I have probably sold more 5F4s over 5E7 about 3 to 1.

    Hope this helped more than confused.
     
  13. Luca

    Luca Tele-Meister

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    Do you think that the OD tone of 35210 is comparable to the Double Deluxe's?
    It would be nice to have that big amount of creamy overdrive (plus the bigger clean headroom, of course).

    Thanks again, you are clearing things to me.
     
  14. mad dog

    mad dog Friend of Leo's

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    Different tubes. The 6L6 35210 is not going to have the 6v6 OD sound of the deluxe. It'll be punchier, a little harder sounding. Also depends greatly on speakers. My Clark Tyger with P10Qs has more headroom than I expected. Breaks up later than 6v6 tweeds. It has a tough OD sound, not as soft or compressed as the tweed deluxe. But really useable sound; you can roll off treble and it holds together, doesn't mud out. The 35210 would break up a bit sooner than my 3x10.

    My guess is you'd love the double deluxe sound, but struggle on stage to keep it prominent in the mix. The 35210 might not sound as lush at home, but it'll work really well on a loud stage.
     
  15. Luca

    Luca Tele-Meister

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    Hei mad,
    thanks for the tip.
    I'm so concerned about the OD tone of the amp because I'd really like to forget my dist pedals.

    The Bassman is so clean that I could turn it to 12 and it's still way cleaner than what I need (I play in a rock band).

    That's why the Double Deluxe captured my attention. Natural overdrive!

    I think I could end up with the 35210, but I already know that I still would need to put a OD pedal in front of it; it's not bad, but it's not the same thing.

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
     
  16. Tim Bowen

    Tim Bowen Poster Extraordinaire

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    Is this typical of the Victoria line? I played an (EL84-based) Victorilux a while back, and while I thought that the clean and verge-of-breakup tones were stunning, the light breakup (and beyond) tones were extremely harsh. I was shocked. I understand that EL84 is not typical tone stack for this line of amps.

    I've tossed around the idea for quite some time of moving some other gear down the line, in order to score a Victoria or Clark tweed that strikes a nice balance between clean headroom and light clipping at reasonable volumes. However, the aforementioned experience raised my brow considerably.
     
  17. mad dog

    mad dog Friend of Leo's

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    I'd bet anything that this "harsh OD at high volumes" issue is strictly a function of speakers. If I remember right, many Vickys come stock with the Jensen RI speakers. Lots of players prefer other brands. The guy who sold me the Tyger swapped out the original Jensens for Weber P10Qs, said it made an already great amp better. Much smoother high-end drive. We're talking time-tested circuits here (for super and bandmaster, anyway) and top-notch builders. They're not compromising on parts quality. It's probably speakers.

    On Luca's point about pedals: It's a balancing act. Play the wrong amp in the wrong room (a bassman in a small, quiet club), and you'll probably need a pedal for drive. That's where I'd bring the lower wattage, 6v6 amp and tell the drummer to calm down. You can't beat that 6v6 natural distortion sound. With the 35210 or 35310 you're scaling back on power vs. a bassman, moving the breakup lower, into more usable territory. It's not that soft 6v6 drive, but with the right speakers it's not at all harsh. The Tyger has a hot, liquid sound when you push it. I'm fond of the two amp setup, as you can use one amp (in my case, a Gibson GA40) as one giant pedal, with your cleaner, tighter-base amp laying down the foundation.
     
  18. laseneca

    laseneca TDPRI Member

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    Harsh OD and Jensens

    I'm inclined to agree that the Jensen R.I. speakers are responsible for the high level OD being a bit harsh. It's rare that I need to go there these days, and if I do I use a house Marshall or my Vox Pathfinder. The Jensens retain the authentic bark of the tweed. I believe they were cheap speakers in their day made with stiff-paper cones which gave the bark and projection. Once they loosened up, they produced a fatter sound, but still barked. Push those cones too hard and the bark becomes more like a squeal.

    I remember my first Silvertone Twin and the Jensen 12s in it. I blew the coils on both three times in 8 months (it was 1967 thereabouts :)). Made me distrust and poo-poo Jensen speakers for years. They have one advantage besides the bark; they are lightweight.

    The 35310 comes in at about 43 pounds. If I change to Celestions or Webers, I'll need a roadie (one who works for free cause in LA if you get paid to play it's just enough to cover strings and cigars.) I tried the 45410, 35310, Vicotorialux, 35310, Deluxe against Carr Rambler, Carr El Moto, Dr. Z MAZ Jr., Bad Cat whatever, and a Bogner Shiva (on the same day with Joe Neri at Westwood Music.) Truth be told, I liked the Shiva, but at 75 lbs, I'm too old. Immediately behind but the winner in the cleaner blues tones (crunch) was the 35310. I thought it would be the Bassman, but it wasn't. The Carrs were nowhere near the Vickies in fullness, richness of tone (they could be quite good for twang.) The Dr. Z was similar to the Shiva, but smaller in its ability to fill the room. The magic that day was the 35310 for blues and the Shiva for shredding. I was shocked and bought the 35310. I've never regretted it (though I harbor a desire for an even lighterweight Victoria Deluxe.)

    I've had more compliments on the 35310 over the years. Santa Barbara Dana once said it was the only Vickie if ever liked. On those nigts when I get more Buddy Guy than BB, I often wonder if lugging the Shiva would have been worth it. Then I turn on the Blackstone, Banzai CF, Maxon SD, old original Green Box and a reissue Univox fuzzall at once and hang on for all I'm worth.:) Let's just say at that moment I'm dancing with Shiva and Vickie is supporting me without stress. It is a wonderful machine, one that I am lucky to use.

    It may be more trouble to haul than the 35210, but it is more palpable. It isn't a Bassman; it's sweeter. The Bassman has probably become a cliche in blues by now, and IMHO is best used by harp players. Not that I would turn one down. So even though the 35310 seems an odd duck, it does something that neither the Super nor the Bassman do. I'd call it sweet presence. Imagine what it would be like with better speakers.

    All of the above is subjective ramblings, not as well thought out as HP's in The Absolute Sound over the years, but along the same lines. Finally the proof in the pudding is my wife, who is not a musician (just the supporter of one :)) coming up to me after a gig using a preset backline and telling me how much better the Vickie sounds, which ultimately means me. She enjoys my palpable sweetness.:)
     
  19. Luca

    Luca Tele-Meister

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    Hei laseneca,
    how was the DR.Z maz jr. sounding?
    The maz. 18 is, together with the Vicky, on my wish list (I have to choose only one... :? ).

    I would like to hear a comment.
    Some guys say that the Dr.Z's are a little sterile sounding, something like "too perfect sounding", did you notice the same thing?
    What amount of gain did it have?

    Thanks!
     
  20. mad dog

    mad dog Friend of Leo's

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    laseneca: Sounds you got exactly the right amp for you. First heard about the Vicky bandmaster years ago via Bob Margolin. He got one of the first ones, raved about it in interviews, I think was an early endorser. The studio stuff on which he used it really sounded hot. Remarkable, no pedal strat tones. I'd never seen an original 3x10, but right then decided I'd find one. Turned out to be a Clark, not a Vicky, but man, the wait was worth it. Mine weights a few pounds more -- guessing 48-50 pounds -- due to built in 3 knob reverb. I have played some mighty good amps in my time, but none better than this. It reminds me most of the original 2-hole bassman, similar presence but even more punch. Way cleaner than the smaller tweeds, but with a hot, snarly bite when you push it. This thing has soul!
     
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