1. Win a Broadcaster or one of 3 Teles! The annual Supporting Member Giveaway is on. To enter Click Here. To see all the prizes and full details Click Here. To view the thread about the giveaway Click Here.

VFE Rocket or WMD parametric EQ?

Discussion in 'The Stomp Box' started by Obsessed, Jul 6, 2017.

  1. ukepicker

    ukepicker Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,893
    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2013
    Location:
    Texas
    Great info and explanations, Dave!
     
    Obsessed likes this.
  2. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    25,866
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Location:
    Montana
    It is great to know that someone else is gaining knowledge from Dave's efforts.
     
    ukepicker likes this.
  3. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    25,866
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Location:
    Montana
    Okay, now that I have given this some thought and looked at the Pinball, as I understand it, the Pinball curve is really showing the "mids" as a shelving filter too. So a classic mid hump is not available like with the Rocket or a typical parametric EQ. And if that is correct, what Peter did to help speed up adjusting EQ, is by simplifying using shelving filters, hence only the mids on the Rocket has full range adjustments. Also, this is why the Pinball is relatively inexpensive (actually, a heck of a deal), but pretty specific in features. It all depends on what the guitarist needs and/or how quickly to adjust EQ.

    I hope I have that right?:rolleyes:
     
  4. DaveKS

    DaveKS Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,712
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Location:
    KS
    Yes, if you want to focus in a narrower range, Rocket or even Standout is a better choice. But let me correct you, only one that has shelving low/high is Rocket, and their fixed freq. They are low and high pass filters (roll offs) on Standout/Pinball. Once you set freq they start rolling out sound and they keep rolling it out till it's all gone. A shelf reaches a turning point and then flattens out.

    What's left with Standout/Pinball is a flat shelf in the middle, what's left of your dry tone on a mids shelf that you can then boost up.

    Now look at Standout in diagram I posted above where you can roll back in dry, that's closer to true high and low shelf, but not quite, you'll still see a little slope in bass/treble ends.

    Now imagine if you took Standout, rolled those points closer together. You'd end up with mound/bump in middle that you can can position anywhere you want then boost. Then use that clean blend and you can make that mids boost bump as slight or as severe as you want.

    Pinball can't do that kind of thing. But Standout can't tilt, it always just flat across middle except where it starts roll offs. Rocket it can make all kinds of shapes other two can't do either, even stuck wah or even a notched cut to kill feedback.

    It is really hard to make a decision on what will work best for a certain application.

    I will say that the momentary footswitch function option on all my VFE EQ is killer for popping in with a quick lead fill.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2017
    sanfi4u and Obsessed like this.
  5. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    25,866
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Location:
    Montana
    Good to know and thanks for correcting my understanding. Hmmm, yeah, I can see the advantages of all three. Pretty darn cool pedals as usual from VFE. The two VFE pedals that I have are absolutely outstanding and well thought out. The Pinball has an internal buffer switch from true bypass that might come handy since I eliminated my buffer pedal on my new "downsized" board. My need for an EQ pedal is really taken care of by the Pinball too. The video demo is exactly what I do with my graphics EQ that I put on my Grab 'n Go jammin' board. Very intriguing. Thanks again DaveKS.
     
  6. VonRutter

    VonRutter NEW MEMBER!

    Posts:
    2
    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2014
    Location:
    Puyallup, WA, USA
    Unfortunately, these graphs don't accurately represent what the Pinball does. I should clarify the operation of the Pinball here. It's a different type of EQ, so there is some confusion about how it works. A basic tilt equalizer circuit blends a HPF (bass cut) with a LPF (treble cut).

    Here's the basic operation of the TONE knob in the Pinball:
    Clockwise - more HPF (bass cut) blended than LPF (treble cut), yielding a brighter tone
    Counterclockwise - more LPF (treble cut) blended than HPF (bass cut), yielding a darker tone

    With most tilt equalizers, the frequency around which the tone "tilts" is fixed. I've seen one 500 series module that also lets you select from one of 4 center tilt frequencies. The Pinball is different from all these, as it allows you to adjust both the HPF & LPF that make up the "tilt". That's what those 2 knobs do - affect the frequencies you are blending together.

    These HPF/LPF do NOT do the same thing as the Standout. There is no way to cut both bass & treble simultaneously on the Pinball. There is a way to scoop or boost mids gently using overlap or gaps betweens the two filters, but it's not the same as the EQ you get out of the Standout.

    I hope that helps! Someday I'll have time to do a proper, graphical explanation (hopefully by the end of the summer).
     
    sanfi4u, wrathfuldeity and Obsessed like this.
  7. Ricky D.

    Ricky D. Doctor of Teleocity

    Age:
    69
    Posts:
    10,986
    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Location:
    Raleigh, North Carolina
    I've had an Ibanez PQL since 1985. It has a single band parametric with level, sweep and Q controls, plus separate treble and bass controls that are fixed frequency and Q (like bass and treble controls on your amp).

    Very easy to use now that I've had 32 years to fool with it. Level all the way up or down so you can really hear what the center freq is, and make the Q as narrow as possible. The level gives you +/- 18 dB, so now when you sweep it it's easy to hear where you are. Once you nail your target center freq, you just play with Q and level to get the voicing you want. Anyway, that's what I do.
     
  8. DaveKS

    DaveKS Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,712
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Location:
    KS

    Yes, I remember the block diagrams from your Kickstarter on these and how they differ.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    I also now see fault in my diagram of Pinball, there will be less rollout in top and bottom ends because of way it blends the 2 filters. I'll get it corrected and run it by you before I repost. You would have to have 2 sets of HPF/LPF and blend them together to get what my diagram shows.
     
  9. Obsessed

    Obsessed Telefied Silver Supporter

    Posts:
    25,866
    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Location:
    Montana
    Thanks again VonRutter . I found your YouTube video describing how your three latest pedals (Pinball, Standout, and Dragon) operate. That vid clears up a lot of my questions. I now understand why the Standout is different from the Pinball. I also now know why DaveKS sees the advantages of both the Pinball and the Standout. Very cool stuff.
     
    wrathfuldeity likes this.
  10. wrathfuldeity

    wrathfuldeity Tele-Afflicted

    Posts:
    1,435
    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Location:
    Turdcaster, WA
    @VonRutter, very cool that you have popped in...I'm also one of the fans with 5 vfe pedals that is just north in Bham. And thanks for the YT of the Pinball, Standout and Dragon...clears up a lot up to my luddite bewilderment. But a question/suggestion/encouragement....it seems an like a finishing addition to the vfe eq stable would be to do a pultec eq....PLEASE. To which if needed I would gladly lend you my prototype of a pultec from another builder in ozzyland that apparently decided not to pursue production. Btw all the best on the new teaching endeavor...you are gifting future generations quite a legacy...THANK YOU Sir VonRutter!
     
    Obsessed likes this.
  11. macnylonguitar

    macnylonguitar TDPRI Member

    Age:
    55
    Posts:
    13
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Hello,

    Have posted here before in other threads. Question for the thread, and DaveKS...

    Electric / Acoustic nylon player and using a Grace Design ALIX, probably will sell it and just use a Grace Design Bix...

    The Bix will be a smalller footprint on the pedalboard, still get that same clean and powerful musical Grace Design Preamp sound.

    But, I am thinking, since for me the Para EQ on the ALIX is basically "straight up", essentially not being used..

    I am really only using the HPF to remove / add lows depending.. and the Low and High knobs... on my electric nylon, I have the Low at full, and High at 0..interesting...

    Rama headless electric nylon, great guitar for giging / live..

    It's a passive piezo / saddle pickup, so I need some clean and transparent gain, and the Grace Design does an awesome job, huge sound, zero noise.

    This is all going into a Quilter ToneBlock 201 power amp, fully clean, Ear Candy 10" cab...Sounds great...

    But, there are basically zero EQ controls on the Quilter, hence a good EQ pedal..

    I had an Empress Para EQ years ago, it was just OK, lots of fiddling, with not much musical EQ at my fingertips.

    Plus the Empress Para is a big pedal, and $200-250, yikes.

    As you say and know, regarding guitar, it's all about the mid's, and the different frequency levels of mids (low, mid, high), even on acoustic / electric nylon...

    So perhaps the Pinball can be an answer, and bring to some actual usable / musical EQ...or perhaps the the WMD... your thoughts greatly appreciated, and much obliged...john
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  12. DaveKS

    DaveKS Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,712
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Location:
    KS
    Guess I don’t understand what your trying to accomplish. Looks like you’ve got all the EQ you could possibly need with what you have currently.
     
  13. macnylonguitar

    macnylonguitar TDPRI Member

    Age:
    55
    Posts:
    13
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    DaveKS,

    The Grace Design ALIX, will be sold... so i now only have High and Low, with the GD BIX, very little Mid control...that is the issue.......

    From GD BIX manual...

    The Low control of the BiX is fixed at either 100Hz or 200Hz
    The High control of the BiX is fixed at with a 2kHz or 4kHz

    Knowing that, what might you recommend to get some more Mid Control...

    The GD BIX, may just serve simply as a great, powerful and transparent preamp, but not much Mid EQ control...thx, john
     
  14. DaveKS

    DaveKS Friend of Leo's

    Posts:
    3,712
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2013
    Location:
    KS
    You’ve got a full parametric mids on current Alix preamp, you won’t get any better than that for mids. The box on Bix is only slightly smaller than Alix, so by time you add another box for EQ plus patch cables etc your actually going to be taking up more board space than what you currently have. What is that you want to do in mids that you can’t do with a full parametric?

    I guess I’m just not seeing your whole logic here. And yes I read manuals for both Bix and Alix and my opinion is your better off with what you currently have.

    But yes Pinball is great eq, but it won’t do same as a parametric nor the HPF, but you can narrowly boost a wide range of mids then tilt mids warmer or brighter.

    Also on sale this weekend.
    https://reverb.com/item/18007137-vfe-pinball-tilt-eq-bare-metal-with-dark-green-knobs-b-stock
     
  15. macnylonguitar

    macnylonguitar TDPRI Member

    Age:
    55
    Posts:
    13
    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2019
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    @DaveKS,

    Got it, thanks so much for the info
     
IMPORTANT: Treat everyone here with respect, no matter how difficult!
No sex, drug, political, religion or hate discussion permitted here.