using an EQ pedal to get TWEED tone?

[ruger9]

This is partially a discussion about amp tones, but since it's focus is whether or not it's possible to get amp tones with a PEDAL, I put this in the pedal forum.

Basically, is it possible, or would it yeild a good result, to try to use an EQ pedal on something like a BF Princeton, or even an AC30, to acheive TWEED (5E3, or even Brownish 6G2) tones? I'm not looking to "change" or "mod" an amp, just curious if it's worth bothering? I've seen some opinions that almost all can be achieved with proper EQing, and other say now way- the amp is what it is.

Now understand... I'm not expecting my Black Pearl (AC30) to sound just like a 5E3, but would tweedish tones be possible? I see recently where Keith Urban has a few EQs on his board, to re-EQ a couple guitars/amps to his liking, which is where I got the idea from.

Allen has a "raw" control, which is a knob that gradually removes the tone stack from his amps (making it a defacto tweed), and that's the tone I'm after, altho in a different way with the EQ pedal. If I had cash, I'd just buy an Allen Sweet Spot... but I don't.

OH- and I'm not interested in OVERDRIVE pedals, like the Les Lui. I want a tone shaping/change, not looking to add drive... if I want to add drive, I'll turn the amp up, or use one of my fave OD pedals.

 

[telefan62]

I just got a Catalinbread Formula #5 and I am in Tweedy 5e3 heaven - I LOVE this thing! You note that you don't want an overdrive, but I am often using my F5 with the gain at minimum and it nails what you are describing. Check the Catalinbread site for sound clips and a video demo. Highly recommended.

 

[sabby]

I use an EQ pedal to pull single-coils into a mix, but it doesn't change the character of an amp. Even with mids boosted and the high and low ends rolled off, a BF Princeton will sound and feel like a BF Princeton. Amp-in-a-can pedals are better for changing the gain structure/attack-compression ratio of an amp (Menatone, Catalinbread, etc.). As much as EQ, that's what defines an amp. That said, my EQ is a building-block pedal for me.

 

[Ricky D.]

I think you can do a lot that way, but Sabby makes a good point: there are a lot of parameters you won't affect that way.

I have an old Ibanez PQL pedal I use with my 5E3 clone. It has a single band full parametric plus fixed slope and frequency treble and bass controls. I got it long ago to try for humbucker-like tones from a Strat, and it was OK for that. Not cork-sniffin' good, but OK.

It does a reasonable job of emulating BF Fender voicing. Not perfect, but in the neighborhood. Of course it still has the tweed sag/bloom thing happening when you push it.

I don't think a graphic EQ would be as satisfactory, at least not the 5 or 7 band ones. Mids are very sensitive to getting the center frequency and slope just right. Maybe one of those 1/3 octave graphics might do OK.

 

[chrisgblues]

My understanding is that there is not a 'definitive' Tweed tone. All tweed era amps are made different.

If anything, the one thing they 'generally' have in common is that they run out of headroom and break-up early. So essentially, you could say the tweed tone is all about the overdrive and compression. Yes this 'tends' to result in something less sparkly than the blackface tone, so you could EQ to reduce some of the presence and high treble, perhaps also boosting the mids a bit...but really I think that's missing the point.

JMHO. YMMV.

 

[Ricky D.]

My understanding is that there is not a 'definitive' Tweed tone. All tweed era amps are made different.

If anything, the one thing they 'generally' have in common is that they run out of headroom and break-up early. So essentially, you could say the tweed tone is all about the overdrive and compression. Yes this 'tends' to result in something less sparkly than the blackface tone, so you could EQ to reduce some of the presence and high treble, perhaps also boosting the mids a bit...but really I think that's missing the point.

JMHO. YMMV.

There's a lot more to tweed amps than overdrive and compression, and that's not an opinion. There's an excellent clean thing there, too, for those who want to use it. I think tweed owners generally get it, and everybody else gets stuck on the overdrive and never gets past it before their time is up.

I admit I don't know exactly what the OP is after. My point is just that you can do a lot with a parametric EQ to voice one piece of gear to mimic another.

 

[ruger9]

I admit I don't know exactly what the OP is after. My point is just that you can do a lot with a parametric EQ to voice one piece of gear to mimic another.

Read up on Allen Amps' "raw control"... it gradually removes the tone circuit from the signal path, making the amp a defacto tweed. Like having a BF amp that can be tweeded with a knob. That's what I'm after, but in pedal form (obviously it wouldn't work the same way).

 

[chrisgblues]

There's a lot more to tweed amps than overdrive and compression, and that's not an opinion. There's an excellent clean thing there, too, for those who want to use it. I think tweed owners generally get it, and everybody else gets stuck on the overdrive and never gets past it before their time is up.

You're right Ricky, but you're saying it like I was trying to insult somebody which is actually the complete opposite of what I was trying to say. My point was that there is not 'one' tweed sound...so that's something the OP should consider. I think we can all agree there is a huge difference in tone between a tweed Bassman and a tweed Champ...and that's great, but mimicing one or the other are two entirely separate approaches from an EQ standpoint, and may or may not be achievable depending on the amp you're running the EQ through.

My other point is that in finding some 'commonality' the one thing that rings true with almost all tweed amps is the ability to go into OD and compression at relatively acceptable playing volumes. I'm saying that in a positive way...the Stones used this to a great advantage and so have legions of guitarists/bands since.

I'm not playing down the virtues of the clean tones you can get with tweeds. Just saying that there is no 'one' tone, so the OP should consider all factors.

I'll bow out now, since I don't actually own a tweed amp (can't afford one) which I suppose makes my opinion moot. But I know what I like, and I haven't met a Fender amp I didn't like, except for the Zodiac series but I like to block that out.

 

[fezz parka]

It's also the ever so slightly hairy cleans. The interactive channels. They all sound tweed to me. To get the tweed sound you need a tweed circuit.

 

[Ricky D.]

You're right Ricky, but you're saying it like I was trying to insult somebody which is actually the complete opposite of what I was trying to say. My point was that there is not 'one' tweed sound...so that's something the OP should consider. I think we can all agree there is a huge difference in tone between a tweed Bassman and a tweed Champ...and that's great, but mimicing one or the other are two entirely separate approaches from an EQ standpoint, and may or may not be achievable depending on the amp you're running the EQ through.

My other point is that in finding some 'commonality' the one thing that rings true with almost all tweed amps is the ability to go into OD and compression at relatively acceptable playing volumes. I'm saying that in a positive way...the Stones used this to a great advantage and so have legions of guitarists/bands since.

I'm not playing down the virtues of the clean tones you can get with tweeds. Just saying that there is no 'one' tone, so the OP should consider all factors.

I'll bow out now, since I don't actually own a tweed amp (can't afford one) which I suppose makes my opinion moot. But I know what I like, and I haven't met a Fender amp I didn't like, except for the Zodiac series but I like to block that out.

Sorry, chrisgblues, I didn't intend to give that impression. We probably agree completely, but it might take 2 or 3 more beers before we realize it .

We definitely agree on Fender amps in general. In 45 years of playing, I've had a Fender amp for all but two years. I regret the bad choices I made those two years...I can't explain what I was thinking.

It's also the ever so slightly hairy cleans. The interactive channels. They all sound tweed to me. To get the tweed sound you need a tweed circuit.

Fezz, you're right about that. All I've been able to do is scoop mids and roll back the bass a little on my 5E3 to give it more of a BF voice. Fun, a nice novelty, a good sound, but much easier to just get a BF if that's what I really wanted.

 

[ruger9]

Well, I initially didn't want an overdrive, but after talking with somebody from Catalinbread on another forum (thanks telefan62), it looks like maybe an OD would be better at getting me what I'm after... so the Catalinbrad Formula No. 5 and Greer Ghetto Stomp are now considerations.

 

[11 Gauge]

Read up on Allen Amps' "raw control"... it gradually removes the tone circuit from the signal path, making the amp a defacto tweed. Like having a BF amp that can be tweeded with a knob. That's what I'm after, but in pedal form (obviously it wouldn't work the same way).

The raw control, or what any amp builder decides to call it (Boogies have a similar feature) is nothing more than a "kill switch" for the hardwired bandpass filter that passively shunts your midrange frequencies to ground. The knob or switch simply controls by how much.

Since it (midrange bandpass) is filter that your guitar signal will always encounter no matter how you choose to EQ it prior to your tone controls, it will always "undo" any signal processing that you feed into it. You could conceivably boost midband frequencies to such an extent as to give a caricature effect of the amp that you are attempting to emulate, but it will typically sound like crap. A passive tone control rolls off it's targeted frequency at 6dB per octave (above and below, in this case).

Think of it like trying to squeeze a bowling ball through surgical tubing, and that is the general idea of what an EQ in front of an EQ does.

It's just as hard with trying to "emulate Vox tone," since those amps have such a tiny treble capacitor that dramatically alters the EQ through the stack.

The only way to really do it would be by plugging the pedal into an effects loop.

I know that you don't want to mod the amp, but it really is the easiest and cheapest way. All that is done is that the resistance to ground is either increased, or removed altogether. Some folks use a 250K pot (since a mid pot is typically no bigger than 25K), some use a rotary that starts at the stock 6.8K BF/SF resistance, and might go as high as 1 meg or so. Some simply add a toggle to completely disable it. It can be installed in as little as 20 minutes. If you want a multi step rotary, the resistors can be wired to it prior to dropping it in (I think this is what Allen uses).

...Just pull out one of the input jacks to install a pot or switch in it's place, so that you don't have to drill any holes, and can return it to stock if need be.

Edited to add: I didn't realize that it's not a BF/SF amp (thought it was with the Allen reference - sorry). But all tone stacks operate under the same principle, so a switch/control is usually easily added, as long as you have a spot in the front or back of the chassis to put the switch in. Does the amp have an effects loop? If so, try an EQ there.

 

[ruger9]

Think of it like trying to squeeze a bowling ball through surgical tubing, and that is the general idea of what an EQ in front of an EQ does.

This is what I thought as well, and why I was skeptical of using an EQ pedal at all.

The only way to really do it would be by plugging the pedal into an effects loop.

And that too, was my SECOND thought on it! I do have an fx loop, it's line level.

Edited to add: I didn't realize that it's not a BF/SF amp (thought it was with the Allen reference - sorry). But all tone stacks operate under the same principle, so a switch/control is usually easily added, as long as you have a spot in the front or back of the chassis to put the switch in. Does the amp have an effects loop? If so, try an EQ there.

Yes, my amp is a Genz Benz Black Pearl... hesitant to mod it because it's PCB, and everything is really crammed in there. I have done a little PCB modding (Peavey Classic 50), but it's just such a PITA with amps. I actually really like my Black Pearl, have had it & loved it for years... I don't expect to get "tweed deluxe" out if it. But after reading about the Allen Sweet Spot with it's raw control, was curious if something similar could be done with a pedal (in tone, not in function.) You think that might NOT be a complete waste of time? Not sure if anybody makes an EQ PEDAL that does well at line level...

Also, I've been wanting an amp with onboard reverb & bias trem for several years now, and if I had the cash I'd just order a Sweet Spot. But I don't, and with this economy, I'm not sure when I will. I was thinking of picking up a used PRRI and trying this "pedal thing." You make it sound like modding a PRRI with it's own "raw" control might not be that difficult?

 

[11 Gauge]

Not sure if anybody makes an EQ PEDAL that does well at line level...

As long as it's a series loop (sometimes amps have both series and parallel), you're golden. Any EQ box that you put in that loop will come after your tone stack, so you might be able to carve the mids to your liking. Best part is it's completely and utterly reversible in just minutes. Bam!

I was thinking of picking up a used PRRI and trying this "pedal thing." You make it sound like modding a PRRI with it's own "raw" control might not be that difficult?

The raw thing is easy, even to PCB style amps in many instances. The reason why is because the midrange frequencies simply get shunted to ground.

...In the case of a T/M/B tonestack, the mid pot connects right to ground. It's a matter of disconnecting the grounded lug from the circuitboard and inserting your raw switch/pot in series with it.

...In the case of a T&B tonestack, the "leg" of the "midrange" resistor that connects to ground gets lifted, and the raw circuit either goes in series (to add more resistance or simply switch it open), or in place of that resistor.

All that a raw control does is change the value of a single resistor to ground. Low resistor value = sucked out BF/SF mids (Fender used either 6.8K or 15K). Higher resistor value = British (Marshalls use a ~25K pot). Since Jim got that from the Tweed Bassman, that's basically what you get with that. 250K and above will make it sound like it's lifted out of the circuit.

Some people like to use a pot. Others use a rotary with specific fixed settings. Bottom line? It's ONE resistor.

 

[ruger9]

Maybe I'm missing something... what you describe seems to do nothing to the resistors/pots for bass & treble... I thought the raw control lifyed the entire TMB tone stack, which roughly = tweed... not just lifting the mid resistor?

I did this "tone stack lift" on my C600 with a push-pull pot, and it sounded great... but I recall that nothing was done to T or B; something about the extreme mids of removing the mids resistor simply overrode the T&B so you "didn't have to worry about them"? If I recall?

 

[11 Gauge]

Maybe I'm missing something... what you describe seems to do nothing to the resistors/pots for bass & treble... I thought the raw control lifyed the entire TMB tone stack, which roughly = tweed... not just lifting the mid resistor?

I did this "tone stack lift" on my C600 with a push-pull pot, and it sounded great... but I recall that nothing was done to T or B; something about the extreme mids of removing the mids resistor simply overrode the T&B so you "didn't have to worry about them"? If I recall?

If you have a "raw switch" that only disconnects the entire tone stack to ground, then the tone stack only has the coupling caps in parallel. In essence, the bass control is out of the circuit since it can no longer reverence ground. And the treble control is the capacitance of your midrange capacitor combined with your treble capacitor. In the case of a BF/SF amp, that's .047uF and the scant little 250pF combined, or .0470250uF (same difference).

In the case of a rotary or actual pot, once you get down below a certain resistance, the bass and mid come into play again, to varying degrees. But you need to be down to 100K or more like 50K for the effect to be very noticeable.

Mesa Boogie, Ken Fischer, and countless others also used a "shift" or "mid boost" switch, which just puts another cap in parallel with the treble cap. It's usually a 750pF cap, and you actually have to add a resistor or two just to eliminate switch pops.

It's kind of hard to understand what is going on with a passive tone stack. It's basically a fork in the road for different frequencies. One fork lets them pass through. The other one is like a road block. When you add a raw switch, you close off the road block. The pots and resistors are basically just a traffic cop that directs to one fork or the other.

 

[TxTeleMan]

ruger9,

Two things.

1.
The Fender "Blackface" amps had a tone stack that was a fundamental change from the tweed era. One of the outcomes of this was that the BF amps had a tone circuit that had a lot more highs. The Tweed tone circuits took more highs away. The BF amps are described as having a "scooped mid" sound- the highs and lows are boosted and the mids are lower, kind of like a script V on a frequency response chart.

To use an EQ pedal to get a tweed tone out a a BF you could cut the highs, and the lows to some extent, and slightly boost the lower mids, but how much so, and how much effect this would have depends upon the FR curve of your amp to begin with.

2.
Try a Tech 21 Blonde pedal.
image removed

 

[Dr.TeleD]

Unfortunately the site is sold out, but I think this would do the job perfectly. Plus it has a great demo video.
http://proguitarshop.com/store/effects-overdrive-pedals-c-602_6/lovepedal-les-lius-dual-p-165

 

[ruger9]

It's kind of hard to understand what is going on with a passive tone stack. It's basically a fork in the road for different frequencies. One fork lets them pass through. The other one is like a road block. When you add a raw switch, you close off the road block. The pots and resistors are basically just a traffic cop that directs to one fork or the other.

aaahh.... now I'm grasping it. So, most TMB tone stacks are this way? I mean, I realize w/o a schem you don't know what a given amp looks like, but this is the "gold standard" way to do the TMB tonestack? So, likely, any amp with TMB can be given this "raw" control?

 

[ruger9]

I'm not a fan of the Tech21 character pedals... good idea, but they all have un-defeatable speaker emulation built in. The idea was not to put them in front of an amp, or even an fx loop, the idea was to REPLACE the amp, going direct to the board with the pedal. A rather large discussion about this happenned over on TGP awhile back, and the guy from Tech21 (owner? designer? Don't know), simply refused to accept that anybody would want the speaker emulation to be defeatable. His attitude towards the players' wishes was off-putting. The truth of the story, I'm guessing, is that while a great idea, they already had hundreds of the units to sell as-is, and so defended their original design in hopes of selling them.