Unusual 3-Way Humbucker Wiring

[Mike Caffrey]

With a standard 3-way switch and without push/pull or mini toggle, is it possible to wire two humbuckers so that you get position 1 split, middle both humbucking and 3 split?

I've "tuned" my humbuckers by auditioning resistors for partial splits so that they end up in between humbucking and single coil, and brighter, but still have some noise cancellation. I don't want the option to switch between humbucking and tapped when each pickup is alone, I don't like the sound of the middle position when both are split, and I'm happy with the sound of the two in parallel as humbuckers.

Right now I've got a single push push, but I don't like having to both move the switch and hit the push push. Plus, I want to use the push push to bypass the tone.


For those interested in all of the details, I've got a large cap in series with the resistors for the bridge so that the low frequencies and 60hz are still humbucking, but the highs aren't canceling and end up more open and single coil sounding. The neck doesn't have the cap, just the resistors.

Seth Lover in the neck and BG1400 in the bridge.


If there's no way to do this, where can I find a double wafer 3-way in the US?

 

[pipthepilot]

Hello, Yes you can configure the switch really easily to do this.

Connect both of the common lugs (top right & bottom left) and send them to the vol pot.
Solder the link wires from the Bridge PU to 2nd from top right lug and the Bridge Hot wire to 2nd from bottom right.
Do the Neck PU, solder the link wires to 2nd from bottom left and the hot wire to 2nd from top left.
Lastly, solder the ground wires to back of pot.

Your caps and resistors will also need to be connected to the switch lugs with the link wires attached.

Hope that helps.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

I'm not totally following the explanation. One reason is my switch has 8 lugs in a straight line.

The other thing I find confusing is currently, my link wires go to the resistors and then to ground. If I connect them to the switch and send them to the volume pot, isn't that going to prevent them from going to ground?

 

[pipthepilot]

I'm not totally following the explanation. One reason is my switch has 8 lugs in a straight line.

Can you post a picture of your switch because 8 lugs in a row isn't a standard three way switch.

The other thing I find confusing is currently, my link wires go to the resistors and then to ground. If I connect them to the switch and send them to the volume pot, isn't that going to prevent them from going to ground?

You're right I wrote this at 2 minutes to midnight before I went to bed. I wrote it from memory without drawing it out and didn't think through the partial split cap/resistor.

The switch positions are correct (for standard 3 way switch) but won't work with partial splits. I'll write it down this time and work it out for you.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

It's this type of switch:

 

[Mike Caffrey]

It's a question of whether both outputs are linked internally. If not, I could put one to ground, though I think that would still create an issue for having both pickups on in the middle position.

It may mean I have to get a switch with a double wafer, but they don't come up as available on any US websites.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

I just found this one: https://guitarelectronics.com/3-position-super-switch-for-telecaster-w-black-tip-16-terminals/


Can I wire one side the usual way and then send the common on the other side to ground and connect the bridge and neck splits to the first and third positions only on the second side?

Or do both sides send to all of the commons?

 

[pipthepilot]

I just found this one: https://guitarelectronics.com/3-position-super-switch-for-telecaster-w-black-tip-16-terminals/


Can I wire one side the usual way and then send the common on the other side to ground and connect the bridge and neck splits to the first and third positions only on the second side?

Or do both sides send to all of the commons?

This would be a better switch to use to get the desired outcome. A standard DP3T switch will allow the desired outcome but adding the Cap/Res tuning is complicated. I started drawing it but I kept coming to the conclusion that I needed another pole for ground.

I'll quickly draw up a schematic using the 3-Way super switch for you that will explain how to wire it to get your desire outcome.

 

[pipthepilot]

Here you go,

This is using Seymour Duncan wire colours so Black is HOT, Green is GND, Red & White are LINKs and Grey is the bare plate ground wire.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

This would be a better switch to use to get the desired outcome. A standard DP3T switch will allow the desired outcome but adding the Cap/Res tuning is complicated. I started drawing it but I kept coming to the conclusion that I needed another pole for ground.

I'll quickly draw up a schematic using the 3-Way super switch for you that will explain how to wire it to get your desire outcome.

Is having another pole the same thing as having another common?

 

[Mike Caffrey]

Here you go,

View attachment 1102558

This is using Seymour Duncan wire colours so Black is HOT, Green is GND, Red & White are LINKs and Grey is the bare plate ground wire.

Thank you. That's similar to what I was expecting, though I've got the resistors and cap inline, so if I connected them to the switch input, there would be one less wire.


The one thing I'm still unclear about on my current switch is whether each set of four lugs goes to both commons or whether the switch is made up of two separate parts.

For instance, if I gave up the middle position, could I connect one common to the volume input and one common to ground, then connect the hots to 1 and 3 that go to the volume and the splits to the 1 and 3 that go to ground.

I realize there would be no point to this, but the issue I'm stuck on is understanding how the switch works.


I think that regardless of how it works, I need a super switch or mega switch because with the current one I either lose the middle position or I lose the ability to route a common to ground.

 

[pipthepilot]

Is having another pole the same thing as having another common?

Effectively yes,

The one thing I'm still unclear about on my current switch is whether each set of four lugs goes to both commons or whether the switch is made up of two separate parts.

I couldn't see the image you posted of your switch but I assume its one like this below? I drew the positions so you can see how it works.

For instance, if I gave up the middle position, could I connect one common to the volume input and one common to ground, then connect the hots to 1 and 3 that go to the volume and the splits to the 1 and 3 that go to ground.

Yes, you could and if you linked one on the hots to the middle lug, you will have a single full Humbucker in position 2 but you couldn't have both Humbuckers together.

In the diagram below I chose to add the Bridge to the middle position, this would give you Bridge (Split), Bridge (Full), Neck Split


As a comparison, this is how you could get the Bridge (Split), Bridge & Neck (Full), Neck (Split) but because it's using signal to split and not ground, you can't add the RC filters to ground.

I think that regardless of how it works, I need a super switch or mega switch because with the current one I either lose the middle position or I lose the ability to route a common to ground.

I'd say that would be the simplest way, and your understanding is correct.

However, don't give up hope just yet as there may be a way to do it that I haven't worked out yet. I enjoy thinking about problems like these because your never know, I might need a circuit like this for one of my guitars in the future. I enjoy working out circuits in the same way people enjoy crossword puzzles.

 

[pipthepilot]

I'm such an idiot, it's really simple to achieve what you want. It took me longer to draw it, than work it out!

Use one pole for GND, the other for the RC to GND and then attach the PU ground wire and link wires to the switch as below and then attach the PU hot wires directly to the VOL pot.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

Effectively yes,



I couldn't see the image you posted of your switch but I assume its one like this below? I drew the positions so you can see how it works.

View attachment 1102915



Yes, you could and if you linked one on the hots to the middle lug, you will have a single full Humbucker in position 2 but you couldn't have both Humbuckers together.

In the diagram below I chose to add the Bridge to the middle position, this would give you Bridge (Split), Bridge (Full), Neck Split
View attachment 1102917

As a comparison, this is how you could get the Bridge (Split), Bridge & Neck (Full), Neck (Split) but because it's using signal to split and not ground, you can't add the RC filters to ground.

View attachment 1102922


I'd say that would be the simplest way, and your understanding is correct.

However, don't give up hope just yet as there may be a way to do it that I haven't worked out yet. I enjoy thinking about problems like these because your never know, I might need a circuit like this for one of my guitars in the future. I enjoy working out circuits in the same way people enjoy crossword puzzles.

That's interesting. I think that switches which coil is active compared to sending the split wires to ground, right?

 

[Mike Caffrey]

I'm such an idiot, it's really simple to achieve what you want. It took me longer to draw it, than work it out!

Use one pole for GND, the other for the RC to GND and then attach the PU ground wire and link wires to the switch as below and then attach the PU hot wires directly to the VOL pot.

View attachment 1102923

That's really interesting. I understand the link side, but I don't understand how the green ground side works.

Would the silver wire still go to the back of the volume pot or does it need to follow the green?

Besides not understanding the electrical concept, I also can't see how the switch is selecting either the neck or bridge alone.

And, assuming this works, I think there's another version that might work, where you send the splits to the volume input and the hots to where the links are on the switch, right?

That would reverse which coil is used.

And to have different resistor values and a cap on the bridge only, they'd have to go inline on the way to the switch.

One thing I didn't mention is that I've been running the neck without hitting the tone knob, so if I wanted to keep the tone for the bridge, it would have to be for both pickups, but with the split that's less of an issue.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

Actually, I think I get it now.

The hots don't work with out a ground, so the switch is selecting between the green and the splits as to what's sent to ground to complete the circuit, is that correct?

If I have the RC inline between the linked wires and the switch, then I can use a regular wire from the common to the ground, and I could even send the two greens to the lug between the to link wires and eliminate the wire from the other common to ground.

If I did that, I could connect the common from the top half to the volume and then the lug for the bridge position to the tone so that it's only in when in the bridge position.

 

[pipthepilot]

Would the silver wire still go to the back of the volume pot or does it need to follow the green?

Yes, the bare silver wire still needs to be grounded to the back of the pot.

And to have different resistor values and a cap on the bridge only, they'd have to go inline on the way to the switch.

Yes, the second common can just link to the first and then have the RC & R inline between the link wires and the switch. Or as you mentioned, you could just add the green wires to the centre lug if you put the RC filer inline.

One thing I didn't mention is that I've been running the neck without hitting the tone knob, so if I wanted to keep the tone for the bridge, it would have to be for both pickups, but with the split that's less of an issue.

You may think you've wired it so the Neck doesn't get affected by the tone control but when both pickups are selected the tone control will always affect both PUs in a passive circuit. See the attached diagram that explains why. To truly isolate the tone from a specific pickup, you have to create a high impedance input at the point the isolated pickup meets the tone circuit and that requires an active (powered) buffer.

The hots don't work with out a ground, so the switch is selecting between the green and the splits as to what's sent to ground to complete the circuit, is that correct?

Correct. You need a complete circuit. In all positions, the link wires are always connected to each other. Normally, you you can trace the circuit from GND to the First coil, out the link and back in the link to the Second coil and then out the HOT wire. When you use a DTDP switch to coil split, you're grounding the link so the start and finish of the first coil is shorted out of the circuit and the GND goes straight to the Second coil and out the HOT.

In the solution I've provided you, it works the same if you trace the circuit path starting at GND. When the switch is P1, the GND goes to the Link wires but only one of the link wires creates an active coil to the Hot out to the Vol. In P2, the path starts at GND, goes to the green wire, around the first coil, out the link, back in the link to the second coil and out to Hot.

If I did that, I could connect the common from the top half to the volume and then the lug for the bridge position to the tone so that it's only in when in the bridge position.

Yes you could, you would need to add a link between two lugs so the Hot wire was active in the middle position which again means the tone control will affect both PU.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

I realize that in normal wiring the tone affects both pickups in the middle position even if it's not affecting the neck alone.

What I'd be doing is making it so the tone is only active for the bridge alone.

It occurred to me that I could also wire the top half of the switch in the reverse direction. I could connect the tone to the common and then the bridge pickup position to the volume input and the middle position to the volume output so I could have a standard tone for the bridge position and then the 50's style for the middle.

Yet another option would be to send the tone's ground to the lug with the bridge link wires so that the tone only has a path to ground in the bridge position.

I think the simplest description of your solution is that instead of using the the switch in the hot path it's being used in the the ground path which is both insane and ingenious.

I'm not sure how long it will take and whether it will propagate from people who've learned from your solution or that people will think of this on their own, but eventually this will become at least as common if not more common than standard wiring.


Yet another variation on this would be to send the ground side to a pot as a volume control for the split coil - which is what I did initially. With a standard volume and a stacked second pot, you could have a coil volume and tone.

I found that I had a pretty consistent preference so committing to a fixed resistance and not having to think about it again simplifies.

What it really does is allows for a compromise between single coil and humbucker, which I think would work for a lot of people if they could experience it.

And the idea of humbucking 60hz while not fully humbucking the top end in the bridge makes a lot of sense for a noiseless approach.

What got me started on this whole experiment is that I've always found the contrast between neck and bridge too extreme. Before I understood splits, I started by increasing the volume pot value, sending the neck to volume only and decreasing the tone pot value to compensate for the volume pot increase - though it's not a direct compensation because the Q of the resonant frequency changes as a result.

I'm back to the standard pot values, but with a linear taper tone and a lower value cap so that I can be more subtle in the bridge roll off after balancing the pickups better.


I've still got the push/push tone knob for bypassing the tone from the bridge and I may replace the volume with a push/push for eliminating the resistor because that sounded great too.


I throw out one other thing from a different guitar you might find interesting - a "passive boost".

I have a Tyler strat that came with a mid boost on a push/push switch. I asked if they could turn that into a volume dim, which they did. There's a mini pot in the routing under the jack to control how much the level is cut (there's a treble bleed too). So if you treat the cut position as the default and then press the switch, you get a volume boost.

I've been mulling that over as an option for the push/push volume too.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

Someone needs to make a clamp on stacked rotary switch with alligator clips that you can clamp to the body and cycle through cap/resistor values while playing.

It's really the only way to tune a pickup to taste.

 

[Mike Caffrey]

If I want to split to the other coil, which wires do I reverse?